The day my friend Jim McCloud owner of JLM made the post regarding the allegations of Don doing business with the party in question he called me as he was as dumbfound. Jim told me that he had heard nothing but good things about Don and his work and could not understand why he does business with him. I told Jim that I have known Don for over a decade and had always considered him to be an intelligent man and I was at a loss of words and as dumbfounded as him.
Shortly after talking to Jim I called Don and he advised me that on instructions from his lawyer he could not reply to the messages on the boards or discuss the issue with him. I told him that he needs to be careful as to who he does business with and should answer the allegations ASAP.
I have used several different gunsmith for my for my personal and business needs, but if I was to go to any of them and tell them in order for you to do the minimal gunsmith business I will do with them you need to send me a certified copy of your client’s list Curtis Higgins, Nick Hope, RDTS, Mark McWillis and others will tell me to take my business and shove it.
Is interesting that while a lot of the class III dealers in this Great Nation have used or currently use Don my name is the only one that is posted here. I will in a private way continue to give Don my personal advice, but is not going to be on a public forum. Don is a good family man and gunsmith and I hope smart enough to do the right thing.
Ruben Mendiola
Coleman Lantern Collectors Corner
Sunday, August 21, 2011
Author: Dana Reed (Open letter to Don Quinell)
Dear Mr. Quinell
I received the letter from your attorney demanding my apology for what I posted here. After thinking long and hard, I decided that maybe I jumped to the conclusion (or assumed) that you were aware of the type of person that Dana Reed is. In the e-mail I received from Reed – He always cc’d them to you keeping you informed. In some of those e-mails, you too accused me of mail fraud and other crimes that I did not commit; I only cancelled an order to the nastiest human on the internet. Cancelling an order is not a crime, especially when a convicted felon is involved. For me to “assume” that you knew of his reputation for theft, mail fraud, and the fact that he is indeed a felon, was foolish of me. For those reasons stated above, I apologize!
I did hear from two of your friends that you were also informed by them in the past of Dana Reed, his activities, and they also claim that they gave you advice that you ignored – but I should not have posted based on that information.
Now that that’s out of the way, let’s re-cap some facts.
1. Dana Reed is a convicted felon. I have case numbers and all kinds of other proof of this.
2. Dana Reed steals from many people, most are from internet sites like this.
3. You do business with Mr. Reed. He has probably lied to you regarding his activities, but he does business with you!!
4. I also made the comment “In e-mail” that you would have a dear price to pay if you continue to do business with Reed. This comment wasn’t a threat, it was a warning to you that in the future, Reed would either rip you off, or do something criminal in nature possibly involving you. That comment was said out of respect & concern.
5. You have a good reputation as a Gunsmith – and I would hate to see you get in any trouble involving Dana Reed. I didn’t see that, or any of the other positive things I’ve said in your Attorney’s letter.
6. I James L. McLoud made every statement – Manchester Firing Line Range, & Belmont Firearms & Range, had nothing to do with it, and was never posted as such. The only place that those names were used were in an e-mail was to Dana Reed stating “never to business with me or those entities in the future”
Feel free to call me if you have any questions.
Regards,
Jim McLoud
603.668.9015
I received the letter from your attorney demanding my apology for what I posted here. After thinking long and hard, I decided that maybe I jumped to the conclusion (or assumed) that you were aware of the type of person that Dana Reed is. In the e-mail I received from Reed – He always cc’d them to you keeping you informed. In some of those e-mails, you too accused me of mail fraud and other crimes that I did not commit; I only cancelled an order to the nastiest human on the internet. Cancelling an order is not a crime, especially when a convicted felon is involved. For me to “assume” that you knew of his reputation for theft, mail fraud, and the fact that he is indeed a felon, was foolish of me. For those reasons stated above, I apologize!
I did hear from two of your friends that you were also informed by them in the past of Dana Reed, his activities, and they also claim that they gave you advice that you ignored – but I should not have posted based on that information.
Now that that’s out of the way, let’s re-cap some facts.
1. Dana Reed is a convicted felon. I have case numbers and all kinds of other proof of this.
2. Dana Reed steals from many people, most are from internet sites like this.
3. You do business with Mr. Reed. He has probably lied to you regarding his activities, but he does business with you!!
4. I also made the comment “In e-mail” that you would have a dear price to pay if you continue to do business with Reed. This comment wasn’t a threat, it was a warning to you that in the future, Reed would either rip you off, or do something criminal in nature possibly involving you. That comment was said out of respect & concern.
5. You have a good reputation as a Gunsmith – and I would hate to see you get in any trouble involving Dana Reed. I didn’t see that, or any of the other positive things I’ve said in your Attorney’s letter.
6. I James L. McLoud made every statement – Manchester Firing Line Range, & Belmont Firearms & Range, had nothing to do with it, and was never posted as such. The only place that those names were used were in an e-mail was to Dana Reed stating “never to business with me or those entities in the future”
Feel free to call me if you have any questions.
Regards,
Jim McLoud
603.668.9015
Saturday, August 20, 2011
What the Hollis Wayne Fincher Case Means to You
What the Hollis Wayne Fincher Case Means to You)
by Doug Newman
dougnewman@juno.com
Special to The Libertarian Enterprise
"All laws repugnant to the Constitution are void of law."
—Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison (1803)
Does the Bill of Rights still serve as a guarantee of God-given rights against arbitrary abuses of government power? Or is it just a 215-year-old piece of paper that can be disregarded at the whim the authorities?
These are the central questions in the case of Mr. Hollis Wayne Fincher, 60, of Fayetteville, Arkansas. (1) If you are not familiar with this case, you need to be. What happened to Mr. Fincher could happen to you.
Mr. Fincher was arrested on November 8 of last year when his home was raided by agents from the FBI, BATFE and several local law enforcement agencies. He was charged with possession of a machine gun in violation of the Firearms Act of 1934. He had incurred the ire of the authorities for his activism on behalf of the Second Amendment and after protesting proposed local zoning ordinances. (2)
In late December, Assistant US Attorney Wendy Johnson filed a motion with the court requesting that the judge, Jimm Larry Hendren, not allow the defense to use any arguments based on the Constitution or on jury nullification. Heads the feds win; tails Fincher loses.
Fincher went to trial on January 8. After the prosecution rested, Hendren ruled that Mr. Fincher would be able to use the Second Amendment in his defense. Then, Hendren reversed himself, contending that the Second Amendment protected a collective, but not an individual, right.
Then the vise grip tightened on Fincher even more. He was forced to present his testimony before the judge only, and not the jury. Hendren had ruled that the defense could contest the government's evidence, but not the law relevant to the case. After hearing Fincher's testimony—with the jury out of the room, mind you—Hendren decided that Fincher's focus was on the legality of federal gun laws rather than the legality of the firearms that Fincher had in his possession.
On January 12, the jury found Mr. Fincher guilty of possession of illegal machine guns and a sawed-off shotgun.
As I write this, I know not what the sentence will be or what appeals are planned.
While David Bowie and Pat Metheny are supremely talented in music, their politics are waaaaay to the left. However, when I read stories like that of Hollis Wayne Fincher, I cannot help recalling the following lyric from that wonderful theme song from The Falcon and the Snowman.
"A little piece of you, A little piece of me will die. . . This is not America."
Every time the authorities so recklessly and wantonly disregard the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, a little bit of freedom—your freedom and mine—dies. We are not living in the America I thought I was living in during the early years of my life.
The government and the media want us to think that we are engaged in and apocalyptic struggle against terrorists "who want to take away our freedom and undermine our very way of life." It is not some Islamopsychopath in a cave in Afghanistan who is denying Mr. Fincher his freedom. It is our own wretched and pathetic excuse of a government in Washington and its flunkies in Little Rock, Springdale and Fayetteville. "The terrorists" have not even taken over Afghanistan, one of the poorest most backward countries on earth. Our own government, however, has been slicing and dicing our Constitution and Bill of Rights for decades.
The Bill of Rights guarantees rights that already existed prior to being put to paper in 1791. The Second Amendment states, in part, that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." Any restriction upon that right, no matter what the reason, is unconstitutional. Period.
At this point, people always ask me about the "need" for people to own machine guns and the like. How much fire power did the Branch Davidians "need" when they were so savagely attacked at Waco? How about Randy Weaver and the family of Elian Gonzales? What about all the people who have had their homes raided by DEA stormtroopers for the heinous offense of ingesting the only substance that provided real relief from their illnesses?
Firearms are like insurance: you never know exactly how much you are going to need until faced with a crisis. Indeed firearms are insurance. They insure "the security of a free State" against the actions of a rogue government.
The Sixth Amendment states, in part, that "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed. . ."
Trial by jury means just that: trial by jury and not the "judge's instructions." Trial by jury means that jurors have the right to judge not only the facts, but also the law pertaining to the case. If so much as one juror thinks that the defendant is being charged under a law that is unconstitutional, unjust or just plain stupid, that one juror can vote to acquit, and the defendant walks!
This is the way it was in the beginning of this Republic. Fully informed juries were hugely instrumental as a check on the Fugitive Slave Laws in the 1850s. If Juror Smith thought the Fugitive Slave Laws were stupid, immoral or whatever, his single vote could acquit Defendant Jones who stood charged with harboring runaway slaves.
Fast forward 150 years. The jurors in the Fincher case were only allowed to hear the prosecution's arguments, and were not even allowed in the room when Mr. Fincher was testifying.
People always ask me if jury nullification gives jurors license to "make up the rules as they go along." I respond that jury nullification is actually the ultimate check against bad laws made by a government that makes up the rules as it goes along.
America has two constitutions. One was ratified in Philadelphia in 1787. Its purpose is not to restrain the people, but to restrain the government. It is really a simple document. Its greatness is in this simplicity.
However, it is not a self-enforcing document. Unless "we the people" put its words into practice vigorously and vigilantly, it is of no value. It is reduced to just a piece of paper.
America's other constitution lies in the hearts, minds and souls of its people. If we are ignorant, apathetic and willing to sacrifice freedom for security, our written Constitution has no clout. If we want to be free people, our personal constitutions must consist of, in the words of author Tom Wolfe, "the right stuff."
We think we are a free people. Oh sure, we can vote and we can criticize our government.
However, there are two things you need to know about life in America in 2007: this nation has the world's highest incarceration rate and all ten policy planks of the Communist Manifesto are part of the law of the land.
The trial and conviction of Hollis Wayne Fincher would prompt national outrage in a wherein the citizens were truly vigilant in defense of liberty. However, we do not live in such a country. Whenever I raise issues such as this, or Waco, or Ruby Ridge, or Elian, or my friend Rick Stanley or any number of other abuses of government power in recent years, people look at me as if I am speaking Swahili.
I am going to say this in English and I am going to say this once: WE ARE NOT FREE!
When you can be arrested for exercising a God-given right (3), forbidden from using the Constitution in your defense, and denied a jury trial, you are not free. This is the stuff of which totalitarian states are made! No one named Osama, or Mohammed, or Raheem, or Omar or Abdul is imposing this on us. People named Jimm, Wendy and George are. Terrorists cannot take away our freedom. Our own government is actively doing so, frequently with our blessing!
I know, I know. This is not Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Red China or North Korea. However, America is on a bobsled ride toward a totalitarian future. And unless we end this denial, we will find ourselves slaves on the very land that was once the freest nation on earth.
I started down this libertarian constitutionalist road in late 1991 over the rights of the accused. Bush 41 had signed into law a bill pertaining to racial quotas. An employer charged with violating the provisions of this law would have to prove themselves innocent. Yes, guilty until proven innocent! I said to myself "that could be me some day"! I pray fervently that I am never denied the presumption of innocence or the opportunity for a fair trial.
However, in a land where a man like Hollis Wayne Fincher, who has peacefully exercised his God-given rights and harmed no one, can be denied any semblance whatsoever of a fair trial, I ask you this: how can you feel safe, secure or free?
Notes
1. The blog about United States v. Fincher.
2. Michael Gaddy's account of the issues surrounding the case.
3. See Luke 22:36.
by Doug Newman
dougnewman@juno.com
Special to The Libertarian Enterprise
"All laws repugnant to the Constitution are void of law."
—Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison (1803)
Does the Bill of Rights still serve as a guarantee of God-given rights against arbitrary abuses of government power? Or is it just a 215-year-old piece of paper that can be disregarded at the whim the authorities?
These are the central questions in the case of Mr. Hollis Wayne Fincher, 60, of Fayetteville, Arkansas. (1) If you are not familiar with this case, you need to be. What happened to Mr. Fincher could happen to you.
Mr. Fincher was arrested on November 8 of last year when his home was raided by agents from the FBI, BATFE and several local law enforcement agencies. He was charged with possession of a machine gun in violation of the Firearms Act of 1934. He had incurred the ire of the authorities for his activism on behalf of the Second Amendment and after protesting proposed local zoning ordinances. (2)
In late December, Assistant US Attorney Wendy Johnson filed a motion with the court requesting that the judge, Jimm Larry Hendren, not allow the defense to use any arguments based on the Constitution or on jury nullification. Heads the feds win; tails Fincher loses.
Fincher went to trial on January 8. After the prosecution rested, Hendren ruled that Mr. Fincher would be able to use the Second Amendment in his defense. Then, Hendren reversed himself, contending that the Second Amendment protected a collective, but not an individual, right.
Then the vise grip tightened on Fincher even more. He was forced to present his testimony before the judge only, and not the jury. Hendren had ruled that the defense could contest the government's evidence, but not the law relevant to the case. After hearing Fincher's testimony—with the jury out of the room, mind you—Hendren decided that Fincher's focus was on the legality of federal gun laws rather than the legality of the firearms that Fincher had in his possession.
On January 12, the jury found Mr. Fincher guilty of possession of illegal machine guns and a sawed-off shotgun.
As I write this, I know not what the sentence will be or what appeals are planned.
While David Bowie and Pat Metheny are supremely talented in music, their politics are waaaaay to the left. However, when I read stories like that of Hollis Wayne Fincher, I cannot help recalling the following lyric from that wonderful theme song from The Falcon and the Snowman.
"A little piece of you, A little piece of me will die. . . This is not America."
Every time the authorities so recklessly and wantonly disregard the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, a little bit of freedom—your freedom and mine—dies. We are not living in the America I thought I was living in during the early years of my life.
The government and the media want us to think that we are engaged in and apocalyptic struggle against terrorists "who want to take away our freedom and undermine our very way of life." It is not some Islamopsychopath in a cave in Afghanistan who is denying Mr. Fincher his freedom. It is our own wretched and pathetic excuse of a government in Washington and its flunkies in Little Rock, Springdale and Fayetteville. "The terrorists" have not even taken over Afghanistan, one of the poorest most backward countries on earth. Our own government, however, has been slicing and dicing our Constitution and Bill of Rights for decades.
The Bill of Rights guarantees rights that already existed prior to being put to paper in 1791. The Second Amendment states, in part, that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." Any restriction upon that right, no matter what the reason, is unconstitutional. Period.
At this point, people always ask me about the "need" for people to own machine guns and the like. How much fire power did the Branch Davidians "need" when they were so savagely attacked at Waco? How about Randy Weaver and the family of Elian Gonzales? What about all the people who have had their homes raided by DEA stormtroopers for the heinous offense of ingesting the only substance that provided real relief from their illnesses?
Firearms are like insurance: you never know exactly how much you are going to need until faced with a crisis. Indeed firearms are insurance. They insure "the security of a free State" against the actions of a rogue government.
The Sixth Amendment states, in part, that "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed. . ."
Trial by jury means just that: trial by jury and not the "judge's instructions." Trial by jury means that jurors have the right to judge not only the facts, but also the law pertaining to the case. If so much as one juror thinks that the defendant is being charged under a law that is unconstitutional, unjust or just plain stupid, that one juror can vote to acquit, and the defendant walks!
This is the way it was in the beginning of this Republic. Fully informed juries were hugely instrumental as a check on the Fugitive Slave Laws in the 1850s. If Juror Smith thought the Fugitive Slave Laws were stupid, immoral or whatever, his single vote could acquit Defendant Jones who stood charged with harboring runaway slaves.
Fast forward 150 years. The jurors in the Fincher case were only allowed to hear the prosecution's arguments, and were not even allowed in the room when Mr. Fincher was testifying.
People always ask me if jury nullification gives jurors license to "make up the rules as they go along." I respond that jury nullification is actually the ultimate check against bad laws made by a government that makes up the rules as it goes along.
America has two constitutions. One was ratified in Philadelphia in 1787. Its purpose is not to restrain the people, but to restrain the government. It is really a simple document. Its greatness is in this simplicity.
However, it is not a self-enforcing document. Unless "we the people" put its words into practice vigorously and vigilantly, it is of no value. It is reduced to just a piece of paper.
America's other constitution lies in the hearts, minds and souls of its people. If we are ignorant, apathetic and willing to sacrifice freedom for security, our written Constitution has no clout. If we want to be free people, our personal constitutions must consist of, in the words of author Tom Wolfe, "the right stuff."
We think we are a free people. Oh sure, we can vote and we can criticize our government.
However, there are two things you need to know about life in America in 2007: this nation has the world's highest incarceration rate and all ten policy planks of the Communist Manifesto are part of the law of the land.
The trial and conviction of Hollis Wayne Fincher would prompt national outrage in a wherein the citizens were truly vigilant in defense of liberty. However, we do not live in such a country. Whenever I raise issues such as this, or Waco, or Ruby Ridge, or Elian, or my friend Rick Stanley or any number of other abuses of government power in recent years, people look at me as if I am speaking Swahili.
I am going to say this in English and I am going to say this once: WE ARE NOT FREE!
When you can be arrested for exercising a God-given right (3), forbidden from using the Constitution in your defense, and denied a jury trial, you are not free. This is the stuff of which totalitarian states are made! No one named Osama, or Mohammed, or Raheem, or Omar or Abdul is imposing this on us. People named Jimm, Wendy and George are. Terrorists cannot take away our freedom. Our own government is actively doing so, frequently with our blessing!
I know, I know. This is not Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Red China or North Korea. However, America is on a bobsled ride toward a totalitarian future. And unless we end this denial, we will find ourselves slaves on the very land that was once the freest nation on earth.
I started down this libertarian constitutionalist road in late 1991 over the rights of the accused. Bush 41 had signed into law a bill pertaining to racial quotas. An employer charged with violating the provisions of this law would have to prove themselves innocent. Yes, guilty until proven innocent! I said to myself "that could be me some day"! I pray fervently that I am never denied the presumption of innocence or the opportunity for a fair trial.
However, in a land where a man like Hollis Wayne Fincher, who has peacefully exercised his God-given rights and harmed no one, can be denied any semblance whatsoever of a fair trial, I ask you this: how can you feel safe, secure or free?
Notes
1. The blog about United States v. Fincher.
2. Michael Gaddy's account of the issues surrounding the case.
3. See Luke 22:36.
United States vs. Fincher
Monday, April 23, 2007
Militia headquarters damaged by early fire
As flames rose from the roof of the Washington County militia headquarters on Friday, witnesses reported hearing rounds of ammunition sporadically being fired.
"The corner office of the building was pretty involved when firefighters arrived on scene," said Washington County Fire Marshal John Jenkins. "The building was substantially damaged, but I think they’ll be able to salvage it."
Jenkins said firefighters responded to the Militia of Washington County, 15566 E. Black Oak Road, at about 6 a.m. Friday after a passerby reported seeing flames. The witness further reported hearing sounds ammunition being fired from inside the building.
"The fire was in the corner office of the building," Jenkins said. "It caused extensive damage in and around the office." Jenkins said the cause of the fire is currently under investigation. The blaze comes just two months before the sentencing date for Hollis Wayne Fincher, who founded the militia headquarters in 1994. Fincher served as the organization’s lieutenant commander until his arrest Nov. 9 when federal agents seized 15 illegal machine guns and sawed-off shotguns during a search of his Washington County home. All of the guns were examined and found to be in working order. Shortly after his arrest, Fincher’s supporters began an aggressive campaign to raise awareness of what they thought was an unjust arrest by posting "Free Wayne" signs and bumper stickers around Washington County. Fincher was convicted Jan. 12 of illegally possessing machine guns and possession of a firearm not registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. He faces up to 20 years in federal prison and will be sentenced in the next two months.
In February, a federal judge denied a defense motion to toss out the illegal gun possession conviction against Fincher. The judge ruled that there was no basis for the defense’s motion for "arrest of judgment."
Jenkins didn’t say whether Friday’s fire was related to Fincher’s arrest, but said he was looking at a number of possibilities.
"I was on the radio this morning, and we received a call from one of our regular callers, and he told me and the listening audience that the building had burned," said Don Bright, a local resident known as a regular contributor to talk radio shows. "There’s speculation that it might be someone trying to make a point, but I don’t want to make too many projections."
Though Bright has never been a member of the Militia of Washington County, he supports their beliefs.
"I support what they stand for, which is constitutional government," he said. "I also helped raise money for Wayne’s lawyer."
The Washington County Militia is headquartered down the road from Fincher’s residence — about 5.5 miles south of Huntsville Road. According to its Web site, www.arkansasmilitia.com, the group is committed to "defending liberty and serving Washington County."
The organization holds a weekly muster every Friday at 7 p.m. that is open to the public.
From the Northwest Arkansas Times
Posted by Locking Lug at 12:14 PM 1 comments
Sentencing Set In Machine Gun Case
FAYETTEVILLE -- A sentencing date has been set for a Washington County militia leader convicted in federal court of having three illegal machine guns.
Hollis Wayne Fincher, 60, was convicted Jan. 12 of possessing illegal, unregistered weapons, including machine guns and a sawed-off shotgun.
Sentencing is set for 10 a.m. June 22 in U.S. District Court in Fayetteville before Judge Jimm Larry Hendren.
Fincher faces up to 20 years in federal prison.
In March, Fincher essentially fired his attorney, Oscar Stilley, and was appointed an attorney by the court, Shannon Lea Blatt.
Fincher had two .308-caliber machine guns, homemade versions of the Browning model 1919. The other firearms were 9 mm STEN design submachine guns and a shotgun.
Fincher never denied he had the guns.
The defense tried to make a case of the Constitution versus gun laws; the government kept the case more simple, arguing Fincher had the machine guns and they weren't registered as required by federal law.
After the trial, Hendren refused to throw the conviction out after Fincher challenged the court's jurisdiction and the Grand Jury indictment against him.
Hendren said his court has jurisdiction to hear any case arising from federal law within the Western District of Arkansas. Hendren said the indictment was legally sufficient because it contained all of the essential elements of the offense charged, in this case that Fincher knowingly possessed a machine gun.
Hendren said the government was not required to put on evidence of any connection with interstate commerce in the case.
Fincher didn't testify before the jury. The judge ruled after hearing testimony, with the jury out of the room, that Fincher's proposed testimony was inadmissible because it was aimed at challenging the legality of federal gun laws, not whether Fincher had illegal, unregistered firearms in his possession.
From The Morning News
Posted by Locking Lug at 12:11 PM 0 comments
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
Militia Commander Fires Lawyer
FAYETTEVILLE -- A Black Oak man can fire his lawyer, but will have to take whatever defense attorney the court appoints, a federal judge ruled Friday.
Hollis Wayne Fincher, 60, was convicted in January of possessing illegal, unregistered weapons, including machine guns and a sawed-off shotgun. A sentencing date has not been set.
Fincher asked U.S. District Judge Jimm Larry Hendren to appoint David Dunagin of Fort Smith as his attorney. Fincher fired Oscar Stilley of Fort Smith, who defended Fincher during his trial, citing irreconcilable differences between the two.
More at: The Morning News
Thanks to David Codrea.
Posted by Locking Lug at 9:48 AM 2 comments
Thursday, February 8, 2007
Docket Item #39 Added
The Fincher Docket has been updated with Item #39: Government's response to the Motion to Arrest Judgement.
Posted by Locking Lug at 3:31 PM 0 comments
Tuesday, January 23, 2007
Fincher Docket Updated
Wayne Fincher's docket has been updated with the Motion to Arrest Judgement (Document 37) and the Memorandum Brief in Support Motion to Arrest Judgement (Document 38).
Thanks go to Paul Davis.
Posted by Locking Lug at 11:28 AM 0 comments
Thursday, January 18, 2007
Free Wayne Webring
We have joined the Free Wayne webring. More details can be found here.
Militia headquarters damaged by early fire
As flames rose from the roof of the Washington County militia headquarters on Friday, witnesses reported hearing rounds of ammunition sporadically being fired.
"The corner office of the building was pretty involved when firefighters arrived on scene," said Washington County Fire Marshal John Jenkins. "The building was substantially damaged, but I think they’ll be able to salvage it."
Jenkins said firefighters responded to the Militia of Washington County, 15566 E. Black Oak Road, at about 6 a.m. Friday after a passerby reported seeing flames. The witness further reported hearing sounds ammunition being fired from inside the building.
"The fire was in the corner office of the building," Jenkins said. "It caused extensive damage in and around the office." Jenkins said the cause of the fire is currently under investigation. The blaze comes just two months before the sentencing date for Hollis Wayne Fincher, who founded the militia headquarters in 1994. Fincher served as the organization’s lieutenant commander until his arrest Nov. 9 when federal agents seized 15 illegal machine guns and sawed-off shotguns during a search of his Washington County home. All of the guns were examined and found to be in working order. Shortly after his arrest, Fincher’s supporters began an aggressive campaign to raise awareness of what they thought was an unjust arrest by posting "Free Wayne" signs and bumper stickers around Washington County. Fincher was convicted Jan. 12 of illegally possessing machine guns and possession of a firearm not registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record. He faces up to 20 years in federal prison and will be sentenced in the next two months.
In February, a federal judge denied a defense motion to toss out the illegal gun possession conviction against Fincher. The judge ruled that there was no basis for the defense’s motion for "arrest of judgment."
Jenkins didn’t say whether Friday’s fire was related to Fincher’s arrest, but said he was looking at a number of possibilities.
"I was on the radio this morning, and we received a call from one of our regular callers, and he told me and the listening audience that the building had burned," said Don Bright, a local resident known as a regular contributor to talk radio shows. "There’s speculation that it might be someone trying to make a point, but I don’t want to make too many projections."
Though Bright has never been a member of the Militia of Washington County, he supports their beliefs.
"I support what they stand for, which is constitutional government," he said. "I also helped raise money for Wayne’s lawyer."
The Washington County Militia is headquartered down the road from Fincher’s residence — about 5.5 miles south of Huntsville Road. According to its Web site, www.arkansasmilitia.com, the group is committed to "defending liberty and serving Washington County."
The organization holds a weekly muster every Friday at 7 p.m. that is open to the public.
From the Northwest Arkansas Times
Posted by Locking Lug at 12:14 PM 1 comments
Sentencing Set In Machine Gun Case
FAYETTEVILLE -- A sentencing date has been set for a Washington County militia leader convicted in federal court of having three illegal machine guns.
Hollis Wayne Fincher, 60, was convicted Jan. 12 of possessing illegal, unregistered weapons, including machine guns and a sawed-off shotgun.
Sentencing is set for 10 a.m. June 22 in U.S. District Court in Fayetteville before Judge Jimm Larry Hendren.
Fincher faces up to 20 years in federal prison.
In March, Fincher essentially fired his attorney, Oscar Stilley, and was appointed an attorney by the court, Shannon Lea Blatt.
Fincher had two .308-caliber machine guns, homemade versions of the Browning model 1919. The other firearms were 9 mm STEN design submachine guns and a shotgun.
Fincher never denied he had the guns.
The defense tried to make a case of the Constitution versus gun laws; the government kept the case more simple, arguing Fincher had the machine guns and they weren't registered as required by federal law.
After the trial, Hendren refused to throw the conviction out after Fincher challenged the court's jurisdiction and the Grand Jury indictment against him.
Hendren said his court has jurisdiction to hear any case arising from federal law within the Western District of Arkansas. Hendren said the indictment was legally sufficient because it contained all of the essential elements of the offense charged, in this case that Fincher knowingly possessed a machine gun.
Hendren said the government was not required to put on evidence of any connection with interstate commerce in the case.
Fincher didn't testify before the jury. The judge ruled after hearing testimony, with the jury out of the room, that Fincher's proposed testimony was inadmissible because it was aimed at challenging the legality of federal gun laws, not whether Fincher had illegal, unregistered firearms in his possession.
From The Morning News
Posted by Locking Lug at 12:11 PM 0 comments
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
Militia Commander Fires Lawyer
FAYETTEVILLE -- A Black Oak man can fire his lawyer, but will have to take whatever defense attorney the court appoints, a federal judge ruled Friday.
Hollis Wayne Fincher, 60, was convicted in January of possessing illegal, unregistered weapons, including machine guns and a sawed-off shotgun. A sentencing date has not been set.
Fincher asked U.S. District Judge Jimm Larry Hendren to appoint David Dunagin of Fort Smith as his attorney. Fincher fired Oscar Stilley of Fort Smith, who defended Fincher during his trial, citing irreconcilable differences between the two.
More at: The Morning News
Thanks to David Codrea.
Posted by Locking Lug at 9:48 AM 2 comments
Thursday, February 8, 2007
Docket Item #39 Added
The Fincher Docket has been updated with Item #39: Government's response to the Motion to Arrest Judgement.
Posted by Locking Lug at 3:31 PM 0 comments
Tuesday, January 23, 2007
Fincher Docket Updated
Wayne Fincher's docket has been updated with the Motion to Arrest Judgement (Document 37) and the Memorandum Brief in Support Motion to Arrest Judgement (Document 38).
Thanks go to Paul Davis.
Posted by Locking Lug at 11:28 AM 0 comments
Thursday, January 18, 2007
Free Wayne Webring
We have joined the Free Wayne webring. More details can be found here.
Arrest of Hollis Wayne Fincher
BATFE Raid on the Militia of Washington County and Arrest of Hollis Wayne Fincher Update: 12/24/2007
The government's principal brief has now been filed on Wayne's appeal. The brief was filed in response to the appellant brief filed last month.
There are numerous items in this brief which bear scrutiny, as they ignore pertinent facts. Essentially, this brief appears as a Jimm Larry Hendren can do no wrong, fan club apologetic in which honesty and legal principle have no place. This is despite the fact that Wayne overheard Wendy Johnson plainly tell Judge Hendren "No. No, it's not." in response to his statement "This is fraud." when the court accepted the 120 acres as security for the bond for Wayne's release pending self-report.
One would think there would be at least enough honesty for the U.S. Attorney's office to admit to the Appeals court that they disagreed with with Judge Hendren on this item, instead of acting like the record doesn't even exist. Instead, you will find on page 32 of the brief a citiation of a ruling which they claim supports their contention. However, the citiation is one of the rulings which is in contention in this appeal!
It is very hard to respect the offices held by these people when they themselves are the greatest denigrators and disrespectors of their office. Plainly, the U.S. Attorney's office in Ft. Smith and Judge Hendren do more to destroy respect for the law, the Constitution, and their offices than anyone else involved in this case.
Update: 11/11/2007
The principal brief has now been filed on Wayne's appeal. The brief was filed in the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals by Quentin Rhoades of Montana as pro bono counsel.
The jury trial of U.S. v. Hollis Wayne Fincher has resolved in favor of the government. However, this issue is not closed and appeals are pending.
On June 22, 2007, District Judge Jimm Larry Hendren sentenced Hollis Wayne Fincher to 6 ½ years in Federal prison, with 2 years supervised release, a $1000.00 fine, and $100.00 assessment fee for each offense for a total of $200.00.
Wayne has now reported to the Federal prison facility in Forrest City, Arkansas. He is in minimum security.
There are issues pending as a result of District Judge Jimm Larry Hendren's investigation into Wayne's financial status. Even though the Federal prosecutor had no problem with Wayne transferring his land to his daughters, the judge decided he did not like that and needed to investigate. The investigation is complete and Hendren has determined that Hollis Wayne Fincher "gamed" the court.
Please note that legal expenses continue to accrue. Your financial support is critical and will be greatly appreciated.
http://www.arkansasmilitia.com/raid/ To support Wayne and your Second Amendment rights please send checks to:
The Wayne Fincher Defense Fund
P.O. Box 215
Elkins Arkansas 72727
You may write Wayne at the following address:
Hollis Wayne Fincher
07863-010
Federal Correction Complex 'Low' P.O. Box 9000 - Low
Forrest City, Arkansas 72336
PLEASE NOTE: You must include the number below his name anytime you send anything. If you do not, it will be rejected.
If you want to send money (money orders only) the address is as follows:
Federal Bureau of Prisons
Hollis Wayne Fincher
07863-010
P.O. Box 474701
Des Moines, IA 50947-0001
All money must be sent to the above address. The Forrest City facility does not accept money.
If you wish to send items, books, pictures, etc., please adhere to the following rules:
Inmates are allowed up to 25 pictures, 5 magazines, 5 paperback books. NOTE: Inmates are allowed to receive magazines, soft cover books, greeting cards and photos (NO POLAROIDS). All hard cover books and newspapers must come directly from a publisher (BOOK STORE, ETC.). Please note that any photos, magazines or books that show any form of nudity will be rejected by mail room staff (Wayne would not accept them anyway).
The government's principal brief has now been filed on Wayne's appeal. The brief was filed in response to the appellant brief filed last month.
There are numerous items in this brief which bear scrutiny, as they ignore pertinent facts. Essentially, this brief appears as a Jimm Larry Hendren can do no wrong, fan club apologetic in which honesty and legal principle have no place. This is despite the fact that Wayne overheard Wendy Johnson plainly tell Judge Hendren "No. No, it's not." in response to his statement "This is fraud." when the court accepted the 120 acres as security for the bond for Wayne's release pending self-report.
One would think there would be at least enough honesty for the U.S. Attorney's office to admit to the Appeals court that they disagreed with with Judge Hendren on this item, instead of acting like the record doesn't even exist. Instead, you will find on page 32 of the brief a citiation of a ruling which they claim supports their contention. However, the citiation is one of the rulings which is in contention in this appeal!
It is very hard to respect the offices held by these people when they themselves are the greatest denigrators and disrespectors of their office. Plainly, the U.S. Attorney's office in Ft. Smith and Judge Hendren do more to destroy respect for the law, the Constitution, and their offices than anyone else involved in this case.
Update: 11/11/2007
The principal brief has now been filed on Wayne's appeal. The brief was filed in the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals by Quentin Rhoades of Montana as pro bono counsel.
The jury trial of U.S. v. Hollis Wayne Fincher has resolved in favor of the government. However, this issue is not closed and appeals are pending.
On June 22, 2007, District Judge Jimm Larry Hendren sentenced Hollis Wayne Fincher to 6 ½ years in Federal prison, with 2 years supervised release, a $1000.00 fine, and $100.00 assessment fee for each offense for a total of $200.00.
Wayne has now reported to the Federal prison facility in Forrest City, Arkansas. He is in minimum security.
There are issues pending as a result of District Judge Jimm Larry Hendren's investigation into Wayne's financial status. Even though the Federal prosecutor had no problem with Wayne transferring his land to his daughters, the judge decided he did not like that and needed to investigate. The investigation is complete and Hendren has determined that Hollis Wayne Fincher "gamed" the court.
Please note that legal expenses continue to accrue. Your financial support is critical and will be greatly appreciated.
http://www.arkansasmilitia.com/raid/ To support Wayne and your Second Amendment rights please send checks to:
The Wayne Fincher Defense Fund
P.O. Box 215
Elkins Arkansas 72727
You may write Wayne at the following address:
Hollis Wayne Fincher
07863-010
Federal Correction Complex 'Low' P.O. Box 9000 - Low
Forrest City, Arkansas 72336
PLEASE NOTE: You must include the number below his name anytime you send anything. If you do not, it will be rejected.
If you want to send money (money orders only) the address is as follows:
Federal Bureau of Prisons
Hollis Wayne Fincher
07863-010
P.O. Box 474701
Des Moines, IA 50947-0001
All money must be sent to the above address. The Forrest City facility does not accept money.
If you wish to send items, books, pictures, etc., please adhere to the following rules:
Inmates are allowed up to 25 pictures, 5 magazines, 5 paperback books. NOTE: Inmates are allowed to receive magazines, soft cover books, greeting cards and photos (NO POLAROIDS). All hard cover books and newspapers must come directly from a publisher (BOOK STORE, ETC.). Please note that any photos, magazines or books that show any form of nudity will be rejected by mail room staff (Wayne would not accept them anyway).
12 letter word for thief: VITO SERVIDEO
12 letter word for thief: VITO SERVIDEO
12 letter word for thief: VITO SERVIDEO
Turns out that the Colt Factory 9mm M16A2 SMG that Vito is selling is my former gun (serial number matches according to one of my buddies that visited his shop). If you are looking to purchase this gun,
don't let Vito fool you! He's got plenty of room to negotiate on price!. Also remember, the gun is refinished according to his words (of course this isn't mentioned in the sales description!).
I predict he will probably trade it to one of his "Buddies" (Partners in Crime) once he realizes the word is out.
I have no problem with a Dealer making an honest dollar, its when they lie and deceive to make a dollar (or several thousand dollars) is when people need to be warned. Vito knowingly provided a dishonest description of a gun he traded to me, and when I found out and requested he trade me back my M16A2 SMG, he said he couldn't because it was "already sold".
This evidently was a lie, since he has the Colt M16A2 SMG for sale. This speaks volumes on his honesty and integrity.
I would love to know if this guy is still on Bower's RDL list!
www.weaponsboard.com/webb.../read/2317
GunBroker.com - View User FeedbackBuyer prefers to whine to Buddy Hinton. ... READ ALL HIS NEG FEEDBACK www.sturmgewehr.com/webBB...read=36983 ...
www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewUserFeedback.asp?User=152918&Page=18&Items=50 - 73k - Cached - Similar pages
12 letter word for thief: VITO SERVIDEO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been banned from Sturm for letting guys know about this board.
: Submission Not Accepted!
: Your submission was not accepted, as unfortunately, your IP address has been : banned from posting to General Firearms Discussion Board. If you're the : hapless victim of someone else's misbehavior, please contact the site : administrator to see if it's possible to revise the ban. If you have any : questions, please send a note to buddyhinton@hotmail.com.
: BUDDY, here is my note to you: PLEASE save the internet gun community further : embarrassment with your childish troll activity. You banned me for letting : folks know there is a BETTER board that is free, has better pic posting : and NO rude trolling. You call your board "free" yet, you call : your guests a "sad bunch" when they don't bow to your begging. : Hell, you even ask buyers and readers to pay you. Pathetic. You are the : only gun board on the net that asks buyers and readers to pay you. You are : taking a once good board and wrecking it. I posted on Sturm the day it : went online. It WAS a good board but, I've been watching it deteriorate : under your brainless moderating. Now, you are threatening to shut down the : NFA board as part of your money demand. Do us all a favor and KILL IT then : SHUT UP! You banned me because I support this board. That means you don't : want folks to know about this board. You want to keep your abused : prisoners to yourself. The word IS getting out though. There is NO abuse : here, NO trolling for money, NO banning for speaking about another board. : I bear you no ill will but, I RESENT your abuse of your position, your : mistreatment of your guests. You are slowly killing Sturm. Be a man, pull : your pistol and shoot that dying horse you have run into the ground...why : make it suffer? Make good on your threat and KILL IT!
I am sorry that it has come to this. It is pretty sad that all the people that helped start that board and make it exist are the ones getting spat on. Makes no sense to me! I have never had anything against Buddy and frankly don't know the man. He does not know me either so I am not sure why the resentment against this board. All I can say is what I said in my latest addendum to the rules and guidelines section. "All posting is 100% FREE with absolutely no charge to the buyer or the seller. No free lunches or pseudo donations. No charge for posting, EVER!"
I will always operate on the premise that the users are what make the site succeed or fail and that is why it was created. The users are what built this site and the users will be the ones to make it grow. What is the point in pissing them off?? Thanks for the support and thanks for helping it grow. WTA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.subguns.com/boards/sw...ead=745871
Message:
Moderating on this board has gone completely Posted By: schizo. We now have "work safe" policies Date: 8/6/06 09:57
In Response To: hey fawkers! been awhile. (tacoma)
and "can't we all get along and not be mean" policies and other vague and unenforceable standards of practice and rules of engagement.
I would suggest it is because of one new moderator I dare not name else I will be banned or something.
Makes you long for the good ole days when Hinkle just got drunk and flushed the board because he couldn't see the keypad clearly.
A few weeks ago Marshall Law almost banned Bryan Pritchard. It's crazy I tell ya, just crazy.
Posted By: politically correct should be changed to neutered Date: 8/6/06 10:11
In Response To: Moderating on this board has gone completely (schizo. We now have "work safe" policies)
running the risk of being banned....LOL
I understand that some have abused porn posts....but the rationale for overmoderation is a bit bizarre. Have heard of reasons such as "people at work surf Subguns.com...and would committ a no-no if they hit a porn link. Newsflash.....most companies monitor websites and anything NON-Work Related is taboo at most corporations.....especially one with the title "Politically incorrect" in it.
I don't understand it either....no problem with moderation....but call it for what it is. The old days of being politically incorrect here are looooooooooooooooooong gone.
b wood
now with 150% more political correctness
If this is offensive and I am banned....then I guess I will catch up on the yard work at the new house Re: 12 letter word for thief: VITO SERVIDEO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
For the three weeks before the attack, the Nelsons and VegSource had fought a running online battle with a group of vociferous pro-gun ideologues intent on disrupting debate at VegSource and harassing the Nelsons. According to the Nelsons, not long after they started deleting what they considered inappropriate posts to their message boards, they began to receive obscene phone calls and threatening e-mail. They saw their own physical address and phone numbers posted to message boards at pro-gun sites, along with threats to send the Nelsons a destructive computer virus. At one site in particular, "Tom Bowers' Politically Incorrect Machine Gun Pages," aka "Subguns," the message board participants reveled in whipping each other into a frenzy of anti-vegetarian and anti-VegSource fervor.
Submachine gun groupies on the warpath against animal-loving vegetarians? At first glance, it looks like just another wacky slice of Net life. And we haven't even begun to discuss the role of talk show host Rosie O'Donnell in all of this. Or the pistol-packing vegans popping out of the Web woodwork. Or the attack on Subguns itself by demented white power racists hailing from a Web site devoted to Adolf Hitler.
But to the Nelsons, the loss of three years of work -- three years of interactively created content generated by an entire community -- isn't in the least bit ludicrous. Instead, it's a depressing indication of where the Web is headed, mid-1999.
As the Web matures, it reflects ever more closely the stresses and shocks that radiate through the offline world --- and its edges seem to sharpen. The VegSource trauma, for example, was a direct outgrowth of the Littleton high school massacre. Increasingly, the Web is where people are turning to voice their outrage and act out their passions in the wake of galvanizing current events.
At the same time, the Web is accelerating the creation of ever more specialized "communities of interest" -- gathering places for more or less like-minded people, united by their love for dairy-free diets or Thompson submachine guns. These communities are fast becoming online tribes. Which means that what happened to VegSource may represent something more than just run-of-the-mill social friction: It could be a sign of burgeoning online tribal warfare.
The two central players in the guns vs. veggies drama, Subguns and VegSource, could hardly seem more different. In one corner, we have a bunch of card-carrying NRA members who like to share pictures of themselves firing lethal weapons. In the other, we find a flood of Gaia-worshippers who flaunt photographs of pet kittens. At Subguns, the regulars ask each other arcane questions about legal restrictions on high-caliber ammunition; at VegSource, the search is on for the perfect recipe for vegan chocolate eclairs (no eggs, please!).
But there are similarities, too. It's not just that passionate gun rights activists and animal-liberation freedom fighters can be capable of nearly identical forms of arrogant intolerance. Or that both Web sites employ the same freely available Web conferencing software on their message boards -- a program that makes anonymous and forged postings fairly easy. Both sites feature numerous topic-oriented message boards where there is little tumult -- but each has at least one board in which political discussion regularly leads to flame wars.
Most significantly, Subguns and VegSource are both excellent examples of one of the most salient recent developments in Web life: they're topic-specific online communities that have settled next to quasi-commercial hubs. Subguns belongs to Tom Bowers, a federally licensed firearms dealer who sells rifle silencers and equipment for modifying semi-automatic weapons. VegSource is a non-profit organization, but it sells ads to support its operation and features numerous links to other commercial, vegetarian-oriented Web sites.
Both sites exploit the Web's greatest strength, its nurturing embrace of niche communities. The Web makes it easy to create a home for any point of view, any particular predilection or prejudice. But the fallout from such niche-ification doesn't have to be friendly: It's just as easy to brew hate as love. Jeff and Sabrina Nelson found that out the hard way in early May.
Bowers says his Web site offers one utterly unmoderated message board for general discussion of gun-related matters where "you can post any kind of offensive crap." (That message board, which was operational throughout the period during which this article was researched, went offline at almost the exact same time Salon published this article. A note Bowers posted on another message board at his site offers no explanation but says "it's going to be a few days" before the board is back up again.)
"It's a service to the community," he says. "There are very few places where you can go on the Net and put anything you want up there without any form of censorship at all. Unfortunately, because it is unmoderated, it is open to trolls," says Bowers, referring to participants in an online discussion who post comments designed purposely to spark outrage. "We are getting hammered by the Nazis and the Antis [anti-gun advocates]."
Nazis? Few veterans of online discourse would dare contradict the truth of Godwin's Law: the longer an online discussion grows, the more likely it is that a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler will be made. But back in 1990, when Mike Godwin formulated his law, few people (excepting Godwin himself) might have imagined that before the decade was over, actual Nazis would be raiding Web sites on a regular basis.
Perhaps it was just a twisted form of Web karmic retribution that sent the white power nuts from adolfhitler.com trolling over to Subguns. Certainly there was no shortage of absurd irony to be found in watching the Subgun regulars complain about jerkish behavior by outside invaders. The whole thing could also have been a farce -- an up-to-date version of the infamous attack on the Usenet newsgroup rec.pets.cats by alt.tasteless back in 1993.
Or maybe the most cynical Subgun suspicions are true, and the so-called Nazis are in reality sneaky vegetarians impersonating "white gun owners." In the aftermath of the destruction of the VegSource server, the chaos overrunning the Subguns board -- a welter of forged posts, imposters and anonymous trolls -- obliterated any chance to make sense out of the mess.
You never really know what's going on out there in the uncharted wastelands of the Web, anyway. Hitler, guns and veggies; fakes, frauds and trolls: Life on the Net often seems baroque and bizarre, weirdly unrepresentative of how real life works. But a
ll too often, online explosions can be traced back to offline catastrophes. A massacre here, an annihilated Web server there -- it's all connected.
http://p100.ezboard.com/fgunsofthemoviesfrm7.showMessage?topicID=47.topic
12 letter word for thief: VITO SERVIDEO
Turns out that the Colt Factory 9mm M16A2 SMG that Vito is selling is my former gun (serial number matches according to one of my buddies that visited his shop). If you are looking to purchase this gun,
don't let Vito fool you! He's got plenty of room to negotiate on price!. Also remember, the gun is refinished according to his words (of course this isn't mentioned in the sales description!).
I predict he will probably trade it to one of his "Buddies" (Partners in Crime) once he realizes the word is out.
I have no problem with a Dealer making an honest dollar, its when they lie and deceive to make a dollar (or several thousand dollars) is when people need to be warned. Vito knowingly provided a dishonest description of a gun he traded to me, and when I found out and requested he trade me back my M16A2 SMG, he said he couldn't because it was "already sold".
This evidently was a lie, since he has the Colt M16A2 SMG for sale. This speaks volumes on his honesty and integrity.
I would love to know if this guy is still on Bower's RDL list!
www.weaponsboard.com/webb.../read/2317
GunBroker.com - View User FeedbackBuyer prefers to whine to Buddy Hinton. ... READ ALL HIS NEG FEEDBACK www.sturmgewehr.com/webBB...read=36983 ...
www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewUserFeedback.asp?User=152918&Page=18&Items=50 - 73k - Cached - Similar pages
12 letter word for thief: VITO SERVIDEO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been banned from Sturm for letting guys know about this board.
: Submission Not Accepted!
: Your submission was not accepted, as unfortunately, your IP address has been : banned from posting to General Firearms Discussion Board. If you're the : hapless victim of someone else's misbehavior, please contact the site : administrator to see if it's possible to revise the ban. If you have any : questions, please send a note to buddyhinton@hotmail.com.
: BUDDY, here is my note to you: PLEASE save the internet gun community further : embarrassment with your childish troll activity. You banned me for letting : folks know there is a BETTER board that is free, has better pic posting : and NO rude trolling. You call your board "free" yet, you call : your guests a "sad bunch" when they don't bow to your begging. : Hell, you even ask buyers and readers to pay you. Pathetic. You are the : only gun board on the net that asks buyers and readers to pay you. You are : taking a once good board and wrecking it. I posted on Sturm the day it : went online. It WAS a good board but, I've been watching it deteriorate : under your brainless moderating. Now, you are threatening to shut down the : NFA board as part of your money demand. Do us all a favor and KILL IT then : SHUT UP! You banned me because I support this board. That means you don't : want folks to know about this board. You want to keep your abused : prisoners to yourself. The word IS getting out though. There is NO abuse : here, NO trolling for money, NO banning for speaking about another board. : I bear you no ill will but, I RESENT your abuse of your position, your : mistreatment of your guests. You are slowly killing Sturm. Be a man, pull : your pistol and shoot that dying horse you have run into the ground...why : make it suffer? Make good on your threat and KILL IT!
I am sorry that it has come to this. It is pretty sad that all the people that helped start that board and make it exist are the ones getting spat on. Makes no sense to me! I have never had anything against Buddy and frankly don't know the man. He does not know me either so I am not sure why the resentment against this board. All I can say is what I said in my latest addendum to the rules and guidelines section. "All posting is 100% FREE with absolutely no charge to the buyer or the seller. No free lunches or pseudo donations. No charge for posting, EVER!"
I will always operate on the premise that the users are what make the site succeed or fail and that is why it was created. The users are what built this site and the users will be the ones to make it grow. What is the point in pissing them off?? Thanks for the support and thanks for helping it grow. WTA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.subguns.com/boards/sw...ead=745871
Message:
Moderating on this board has gone completely Posted By: schizo. We now have "work safe" policies Date: 8/6/06 09:57
In Response To: hey fawkers! been awhile. (tacoma)
and "can't we all get along and not be mean" policies and other vague and unenforceable standards of practice and rules of engagement.
I would suggest it is because of one new moderator I dare not name else I will be banned or something.
Makes you long for the good ole days when Hinkle just got drunk and flushed the board because he couldn't see the keypad clearly.
A few weeks ago Marshall Law almost banned Bryan Pritchard. It's crazy I tell ya, just crazy.
Posted By: politically correct should be changed to neutered Date: 8/6/06 10:11
In Response To: Moderating on this board has gone completely (schizo. We now have "work safe" policies)
running the risk of being banned....LOL
I understand that some have abused porn posts....but the rationale for overmoderation is a bit bizarre. Have heard of reasons such as "people at work surf Subguns.com...and would committ a no-no if they hit a porn link. Newsflash.....most companies monitor websites and anything NON-Work Related is taboo at most corporations.....especially one with the title "Politically incorrect" in it.
I don't understand it either....no problem with moderation....but call it for what it is. The old days of being politically incorrect here are looooooooooooooooooong gone.
b wood
now with 150% more political correctness
If this is offensive and I am banned....then I guess I will catch up on the yard work at the new house Re: 12 letter word for thief: VITO SERVIDEO
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
For the three weeks before the attack, the Nelsons and VegSource had fought a running online battle with a group of vociferous pro-gun ideologues intent on disrupting debate at VegSource and harassing the Nelsons. According to the Nelsons, not long after they started deleting what they considered inappropriate posts to their message boards, they began to receive obscene phone calls and threatening e-mail. They saw their own physical address and phone numbers posted to message boards at pro-gun sites, along with threats to send the Nelsons a destructive computer virus. At one site in particular, "Tom Bowers' Politically Incorrect Machine Gun Pages," aka "Subguns," the message board participants reveled in whipping each other into a frenzy of anti-vegetarian and anti-VegSource fervor.
Submachine gun groupies on the warpath against animal-loving vegetarians? At first glance, it looks like just another wacky slice of Net life. And we haven't even begun to discuss the role of talk show host Rosie O'Donnell in all of this. Or the pistol-packing vegans popping out of the Web woodwork. Or the attack on Subguns itself by demented white power racists hailing from a Web site devoted to Adolf Hitler.
But to the Nelsons, the loss of three years of work -- three years of interactively created content generated by an entire community -- isn't in the least bit ludicrous. Instead, it's a depressing indication of where the Web is headed, mid-1999.
As the Web matures, it reflects ever more closely the stresses and shocks that radiate through the offline world --- and its edges seem to sharpen. The VegSource trauma, for example, was a direct outgrowth of the Littleton high school massacre. Increasingly, the Web is where people are turning to voice their outrage and act out their passions in the wake of galvanizing current events.
At the same time, the Web is accelerating the creation of ever more specialized "communities of interest" -- gathering places for more or less like-minded people, united by their love for dairy-free diets or Thompson submachine guns. These communities are fast becoming online tribes. Which means that what happened to VegSource may represent something more than just run-of-the-mill social friction: It could be a sign of burgeoning online tribal warfare.
The two central players in the guns vs. veggies drama, Subguns and VegSource, could hardly seem more different. In one corner, we have a bunch of card-carrying NRA members who like to share pictures of themselves firing lethal weapons. In the other, we find a flood of Gaia-worshippers who flaunt photographs of pet kittens. At Subguns, the regulars ask each other arcane questions about legal restrictions on high-caliber ammunition; at VegSource, the search is on for the perfect recipe for vegan chocolate eclairs (no eggs, please!).
But there are similarities, too. It's not just that passionate gun rights activists and animal-liberation freedom fighters can be capable of nearly identical forms of arrogant intolerance. Or that both Web sites employ the same freely available Web conferencing software on their message boards -- a program that makes anonymous and forged postings fairly easy. Both sites feature numerous topic-oriented message boards where there is little tumult -- but each has at least one board in which political discussion regularly leads to flame wars.
Most significantly, Subguns and VegSource are both excellent examples of one of the most salient recent developments in Web life: they're topic-specific online communities that have settled next to quasi-commercial hubs. Subguns belongs to Tom Bowers, a federally licensed firearms dealer who sells rifle silencers and equipment for modifying semi-automatic weapons. VegSource is a non-profit organization, but it sells ads to support its operation and features numerous links to other commercial, vegetarian-oriented Web sites.
Both sites exploit the Web's greatest strength, its nurturing embrace of niche communities. The Web makes it easy to create a home for any point of view, any particular predilection or prejudice. But the fallout from such niche-ification doesn't have to be friendly: It's just as easy to brew hate as love. Jeff and Sabrina Nelson found that out the hard way in early May.
Bowers says his Web site offers one utterly unmoderated message board for general discussion of gun-related matters where "you can post any kind of offensive crap." (That message board, which was operational throughout the period during which this article was researched, went offline at almost the exact same time Salon published this article. A note Bowers posted on another message board at his site offers no explanation but says "it's going to be a few days" before the board is back up again.)
"It's a service to the community," he says. "There are very few places where you can go on the Net and put anything you want up there without any form of censorship at all. Unfortunately, because it is unmoderated, it is open to trolls," says Bowers, referring to participants in an online discussion who post comments designed purposely to spark outrage. "We are getting hammered by the Nazis and the Antis [anti-gun advocates]."
Nazis? Few veterans of online discourse would dare contradict the truth of Godwin's Law: the longer an online discussion grows, the more likely it is that a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler will be made. But back in 1990, when Mike Godwin formulated his law, few people (excepting Godwin himself) might have imagined that before the decade was over, actual Nazis would be raiding Web sites on a regular basis.
Perhaps it was just a twisted form of Web karmic retribution that sent the white power nuts from adolfhitler.com trolling over to Subguns. Certainly there was no shortage of absurd irony to be found in watching the Subgun regulars complain about jerkish behavior by outside invaders. The whole thing could also have been a farce -- an up-to-date version of the infamous attack on the Usenet newsgroup rec.pets.cats by alt.tasteless back in 1993.
Or maybe the most cynical Subgun suspicions are true, and the so-called Nazis are in reality sneaky vegetarians impersonating "white gun owners." In the aftermath of the destruction of the VegSource server, the chaos overrunning the Subguns board -- a welter of forged posts, imposters and anonymous trolls -- obliterated any chance to make sense out of the mess.
You never really know what's going on out there in the uncharted wastelands of the Web, anyway. Hitler, guns and veggies; fakes, frauds and trolls: Life on the Net often seems baroque and bizarre, weirdly unrepresentative of how real life works. But a
ll too often, online explosions can be traced back to offline catastrophes. A massacre here, an annihilated Web server there -- it's all connected.
http://p100.ezboard.com/fgunsofthemoviesfrm7.showMessage?topicID=47.topic
BCR's (boys club ripoffs) Subguns
It appears ole tom has circled the wagons to protect HIS interest and his board. He banned Akins from posting. When you stand up to tom and his BCR's (boys club ripoffs) they attack you, ban you, and then proceed to use their propaganda machine to try and destroy your reputation. If you think this is not true consider these facts:
vito ripped off a guy by selling an "sidefolder" krink that was really a welded up underfolder. when the buyer protested he was attacked by the good ole boys including ruben, vahan, vito, etc--and eventually banned. I call selling a "sidefolder" that was really a welded up underfolder plain and simple FRAUD. Did bowers do a damn thing about it? Did he support vito in the fraud--or did he throw him off the "holier than thou" list due to vito's dishonest dealings? HE SUPPORTED THE RIPOFF! This says as much about tom as it does vito.
vahan ripped off a Florida buyer of a Jap gun. vahan had it advertised as new condition. when the buyer got it the gun had pitting and stains. most honest and rational readers would say the same thing: new condition means NEW condition. what did ole bowers do about this rip off? he stated conditions are simply a dealers opinion. BS. SO BOWERS PROTECTED ANOTHER RIPOFF RDL dealer. bowers protects his own.
this speaks volumes about the integrity of bowers board from the top down.
bowers, ruben, vahan, and vito--a cut from the same cloth.
www.weaponsboard.com/webb.../read/2311
Buddy Hinton is hereby BANNED from this BBS
Translation Those stupid enough to get banned over on Subguns.com [and any other gunboard for that matter]....are Banned here as well.....
Culled from his own board and his own big font muderators post. Enjoy banning yourself from your board as well as sub.com Buddy you stopid @#%$ brown shirted nazi wannabe idiot!
You said it now live up to it. Rules are rules and they apply to EVERYONE right? Or are you a @#%$ liar like tommie boy? This is a nitwit's word meaning Ha. Ha. Ha. How can this be, since thousands have their annual sob fests, wallowing in self-pity agree about the lieing and the snitching.They are all prostitutes and whores have never been of any value beyond what they do best.
Improve yourself and become a white man other white people can respect and trust. Make sure you do not forget those who are your enemies -- those who work against the interests of your white nation -- for that knowledge will be called upon when accounts must be settled. Keep your powder dry and above all be patient. The winds of change are becoming more brisk.
http://p100.ezboard.com/fgunsofthemoviesfrm7.showMessage?topicID=45.topic DANA REED IS AT HIS GAME AGAIN!: The List - Hall Of Shame (HoS)
-- Those in red have been outright fraudlent - (have short reason)
-- Those in bold have repeated/severe "infractions" - (have short reason)
-- Those named in standard font have had at least one grave "problem"
FRAUDULENT - DO NOT BUY FROM/SELL TO
Dana Lee Reed - aka: nukem99, Dan Perez, Lee (gunsamerica), ASC. -- Repeated Fraud.
Recent Dealings on ar15.com: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=47&t=200714&w=searchPop
Dana Lee Reed - DOB 03/21/61 Doing business in Tampa, FL - on or around MacDill AFB
ASC INTERNATIONAL USA (may also be Arms Sourcing Corp.)
3225 S. MACDILL AVE STE 129-238
TAMPA, FL 33629
ASCINTLUSA@cs.com
jumpinjackflash@aol.com
plantedbyhk@cs.com
Dan Perez on Guns America
Lee on Guns America
Dana Reed at ASC
POSSIBLY: Dan Perez on Guns America (need confirm!)
May have also had the following addresses:
1. 3404 TAMBAY AV W TAMPA FL 33629
2. 3414 DORCHESTER W TAMPA FL 33611
Also appears to do business as 'nukemallmommy' on Ebay.
Other reported usernames:
wegothk
dropdbomb
luvmy45
plantedbyhk
freddysdead
See the following threads (intentionally left cold):
subguns.biggerhammer.net/...read=31813
subguns.biggerhammer.net/...read=31851
www.sturmgewehr.com/webBB...read=26245
past Dealings with nukem99 have ended with LEO involvment for attempted resolution!!!
Dana's operating over on the new HK Board under the name NukeIraq cop-gear.com/keep/hkboard...2bac88aafe HK Parts and accessories.
He is also on the new Weapons Board under the name of CPD www.weaponsboard.com/index.html parts and accessories.
www.thefiringline.com/for...48286.html
Houston ReserveDeputy GunnedDown / where is Quannell X ?
www.sturmgewehr.com/webBB...read=52935
A Black Reserve Deputy was Gunned Down and Killed by 4 Black High School Teenagers......
Will Quannell X ....Protest IN FRONT of the Shooters House today ?
Tomorrow?
Ok....the day after tomorrow?
No......because it was Black on Black violence......
Apparently Quannell X is "Ok" with black on Black Violence.....
______________________________________________________________________________
Full Story
abclocal.go.com/ktrk/stor...id=5809853
Carltrell Odom was shot and killed while standing outside of his apartment complex in southeast Houston last Thursday. The four suspects, all teenagers, were arrested over the weekend. They were the type of teens Odom one day hoped to try and keep out of trouble.
All four have been charged with capital murder. One of them is 18 years old, two are 17. They are being charged as adults. A 16-year-old is also being charged with capital murder in juvenile court.
vito ripped off a guy by selling an "sidefolder" krink that was really a welded up underfolder. when the buyer protested he was attacked by the good ole boys including ruben, vahan, vito, etc--and eventually banned. I call selling a "sidefolder" that was really a welded up underfolder plain and simple FRAUD. Did bowers do a damn thing about it? Did he support vito in the fraud--or did he throw him off the "holier than thou" list due to vito's dishonest dealings? HE SUPPORTED THE RIPOFF! This says as much about tom as it does vito.
vahan ripped off a Florida buyer of a Jap gun. vahan had it advertised as new condition. when the buyer got it the gun had pitting and stains. most honest and rational readers would say the same thing: new condition means NEW condition. what did ole bowers do about this rip off? he stated conditions are simply a dealers opinion. BS. SO BOWERS PROTECTED ANOTHER RIPOFF RDL dealer. bowers protects his own.
this speaks volumes about the integrity of bowers board from the top down.
bowers, ruben, vahan, and vito--a cut from the same cloth.
www.weaponsboard.com/webb.../read/2311
Buddy Hinton is hereby BANNED from this BBS
Translation Those stupid enough to get banned over on Subguns.com [and any other gunboard for that matter]....are Banned here as well.....
Culled from his own board and his own big font muderators post. Enjoy banning yourself from your board as well as sub.com Buddy you stopid @#%$ brown shirted nazi wannabe idiot!
You said it now live up to it. Rules are rules and they apply to EVERYONE right? Or are you a @#%$ liar like tommie boy? This is a nitwit's word meaning Ha. Ha. Ha. How can this be, since thousands have their annual sob fests, wallowing in self-pity agree about the lieing and the snitching.They are all prostitutes and whores have never been of any value beyond what they do best.
Improve yourself and become a white man other white people can respect and trust. Make sure you do not forget those who are your enemies -- those who work against the interests of your white nation -- for that knowledge will be called upon when accounts must be settled. Keep your powder dry and above all be patient. The winds of change are becoming more brisk.
http://p100.ezboard.com/fgunsofthemoviesfrm7.showMessage?topicID=45.topic DANA REED IS AT HIS GAME AGAIN!: The List - Hall Of Shame (HoS)
-- Those in red have been outright fraudlent - (have short reason)
-- Those in bold have repeated/severe "infractions" - (have short reason)
-- Those named in standard font have had at least one grave "problem"
FRAUDULENT - DO NOT BUY FROM/SELL TO
Dana Lee Reed - aka: nukem99, Dan Perez, Lee (gunsamerica), ASC. -- Repeated Fraud.
Recent Dealings on ar15.com: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=47&t=200714&w=searchPop
Dana Lee Reed - DOB 03/21/61 Doing business in Tampa, FL - on or around MacDill AFB
ASC INTERNATIONAL USA (may also be Arms Sourcing Corp.)
3225 S. MACDILL AVE STE 129-238
TAMPA, FL 33629
ASCINTLUSA@cs.com
jumpinjackflash@aol.com
plantedbyhk@cs.com
Dan Perez on Guns America
Lee on Guns America
Dana Reed at ASC
POSSIBLY: Dan Perez on Guns America (need confirm!)
May have also had the following addresses:
1. 3404 TAMBAY AV W TAMPA FL 33629
2. 3414 DORCHESTER W TAMPA FL 33611
Also appears to do business as 'nukemallmommy' on Ebay.
Other reported usernames:
wegothk
dropdbomb
luvmy45
plantedbyhk
freddysdead
See the following threads (intentionally left cold):
subguns.biggerhammer.net/...read=31813
subguns.biggerhammer.net/...read=31851
www.sturmgewehr.com/webBB...read=26245
past Dealings with nukem99 have ended with LEO involvment for attempted resolution!!!
Dana's operating over on the new HK Board under the name NukeIraq cop-gear.com/keep/hkboard...2bac88aafe HK Parts and accessories.
He is also on the new Weapons Board under the name of CPD www.weaponsboard.com/index.html parts and accessories.
www.thefiringline.com/for...48286.html
Houston ReserveDeputy GunnedDown / where is Quannell X ?
www.sturmgewehr.com/webBB...read=52935
A Black Reserve Deputy was Gunned Down and Killed by 4 Black High School Teenagers......
Will Quannell X ....Protest IN FRONT of the Shooters House today ?
Tomorrow?
Ok....the day after tomorrow?
No......because it was Black on Black violence......
Apparently Quannell X is "Ok" with black on Black Violence.....
______________________________________________________________________________
Full Story
abclocal.go.com/ktrk/stor...id=5809853
Carltrell Odom was shot and killed while standing outside of his apartment complex in southeast Houston last Thursday. The four suspects, all teenagers, were arrested over the weekend. They were the type of teens Odom one day hoped to try and keep out of trouble.
All four have been charged with capital murder. One of them is 18 years old, two are 17. They are being charged as adults. A 16-year-old is also being charged with capital murder in juvenile court.
Wednesday, August 10, 2011
The UK will be answering to Brussels soon
The UK will be answering to Brussels soon and with it what is left of their liberties The UK is going to be a dictatorial police state once their rule of law is subject to Brussels and the rule of law gone.
It will be a model (a template) the powers-that-be will apply to other free nation states. Orwell's 1984 + roving gangs of savage negro beasts = UK 2012
LONDON — As this city waited in fear of a fourth night of violent rioting Tuesday, there were growing signs of a grassroots fight-back against the looters.
In the suburb of Dalston, a group of about 150 mainly Turkish restaurant and store staff became overnight heroes when they took to the streets late Monday to guard their businesses.more here, a bit longhttp://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/09/7318704-with-a-show-of-force-and-prayer-london-fights-back
So the Turkish men have the guts to stand up and defend their property.
What about the white Englishmen?
All gone soft and fat, worthless socialists.
They will be very lucky if this does not turn into an all out race war and burn a large part of London down. These are indeed scary times for many and the future is full of chaos and uncertainty.
But is it really uncertainty or is this part of a scripted plan being played out in the nation’s capitol?
A prediction of our future from Australia...The welfare state busts into flames with those who feed at the public trough demand more and more of my money.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/less-political-rebellion-more-mollycoddled-mob/story-e6frg6zo-1226111939883
Just some thoughts, it is a win win for the the rioters, all you can steal, then the traditional government solution is to throw welfare money at the problem. Kind of a first strike by community organizers and the youths themselves against the government threat to diminish the suckling. In effect extortion, basically biting the teat that feeds them to get more milk.
The Police when threatened with cutbacks welcome a good riot. Give the rioters some running room and show John citizen just what can happen, without them. An excuse to increase the Police, not reduce them.
They forbid John citizen from defending himself, the government calls it anarchy. If anything the government says can be believed the logic tree says they are telling on themselves, by labeling what the youths are doing a riot and labeling John citizen pushing back as anarchy.
I'm kind of with the tin foil hat crowd on this one, it stinks of manipulation for personal gain.
The German solution is to effectively put a news blackout on the domestic aspects and focus on England. Here for a long time they have been burning, on the average, a car every other day. In effect on the weekends a rash of cars, there are active days and slows days for the instigators. But they have been basically carrying on a low level terrorist campaign for years. Hans the citizen has also been periodically cashing in, need cash, burn your car and blame it on the vandals.
Weapons crime is pretty rare here, the weapon of choice is fire. I never have figured out the logic, someway they think burning to death is preferable to being shot.
They seem to think burning a domicile is more survivable than than a very small projectile flying through a vast amount of space. I personally don't get it. The vast majority of the houses here are built with one way in and one way out. If you are too old, too young or in some way handicapped your screwed, most houses are built raised from the grade, it is typically over six feet to the ground from a ground floor window. I'm jumping, many people have a fear of heights. Shooting an arsonist is so far out of there thinking to be non existent.
I was taught the use of deadly force, to prevent Sabotage, to stop a serious Felony and prevent Arson. Pretty simple really, a simple formula that has been subverted beyond all recognition by the courts. Now Arson is the weapon of choice.
It will be a model (a template) the powers-that-be will apply to other free nation states. Orwell's 1984 + roving gangs of savage negro beasts = UK 2012
LONDON — As this city waited in fear of a fourth night of violent rioting Tuesday, there were growing signs of a grassroots fight-back against the looters.
In the suburb of Dalston, a group of about 150 mainly Turkish restaurant and store staff became overnight heroes when they took to the streets late Monday to guard their businesses.more here, a bit longhttp://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/09/7318704-with-a-show-of-force-and-prayer-london-fights-back
So the Turkish men have the guts to stand up and defend their property.
What about the white Englishmen?
All gone soft and fat, worthless socialists.
They will be very lucky if this does not turn into an all out race war and burn a large part of London down. These are indeed scary times for many and the future is full of chaos and uncertainty.
But is it really uncertainty or is this part of a scripted plan being played out in the nation’s capitol?
A prediction of our future from Australia...The welfare state busts into flames with those who feed at the public trough demand more and more of my money.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/less-political-rebellion-more-mollycoddled-mob/story-e6frg6zo-1226111939883
Just some thoughts, it is a win win for the the rioters, all you can steal, then the traditional government solution is to throw welfare money at the problem. Kind of a first strike by community organizers and the youths themselves against the government threat to diminish the suckling. In effect extortion, basically biting the teat that feeds them to get more milk.
The Police when threatened with cutbacks welcome a good riot. Give the rioters some running room and show John citizen just what can happen, without them. An excuse to increase the Police, not reduce them.
They forbid John citizen from defending himself, the government calls it anarchy. If anything the government says can be believed the logic tree says they are telling on themselves, by labeling what the youths are doing a riot and labeling John citizen pushing back as anarchy.
I'm kind of with the tin foil hat crowd on this one, it stinks of manipulation for personal gain.
The German solution is to effectively put a news blackout on the domestic aspects and focus on England. Here for a long time they have been burning, on the average, a car every other day. In effect on the weekends a rash of cars, there are active days and slows days for the instigators. But they have been basically carrying on a low level terrorist campaign for years. Hans the citizen has also been periodically cashing in, need cash, burn your car and blame it on the vandals.
Weapons crime is pretty rare here, the weapon of choice is fire. I never have figured out the logic, someway they think burning to death is preferable to being shot.
They seem to think burning a domicile is more survivable than than a very small projectile flying through a vast amount of space. I personally don't get it. The vast majority of the houses here are built with one way in and one way out. If you are too old, too young or in some way handicapped your screwed, most houses are built raised from the grade, it is typically over six feet to the ground from a ground floor window. I'm jumping, many people have a fear of heights. Shooting an arsonist is so far out of there thinking to be non existent.I was taught the use of deadly force, to prevent Sabotage, to stop a serious Felony and prevent Arson. Pretty simple really, a simple formula that has been subverted beyond all recognition by the courts. Now Arson is the weapon of choice.
These riots, which are like a tea party
| These riots, which are like a tea party compared to what might happen in a few years, should teach us several things. • |
These riots, which are like a tea party compared to what
might happen in a few years, should teach us several things.
• Firstly it should tell those foolish people who keep their
fingers crossed for the ‘Race War’ that it will not be so
much a war as a one-sided massacre. There will be no
resistance. Our people who live in the affected areas would
be wiped out. The forces of ‘law and order’ would be
impotent to do anything about it even if they wanted to. As
it is they would almost certainly just stand by and look on
indecisively. As I have pointed out, our people tend to live
in smaller towns and are more spread about. The balance in
most of the big cities and bigger towns of England has
already swung against us.
• Since the last series of major riots in the early 1980s,
the number of immigrants in this country has probably
quadrupled. The riots in the 1980s mainly involved West
Indians. It is an ignorant mistake to characterise these
riots as being West Indian in origin. Some of the areas that
have so far experienced rioting are areas that had riots in
the 1980s and West Indians do live there still. But the fact
is in most of these areas they no longer dominate. I have no
doubt hat West Indians have joined in. I also have no doubt
that some scummy English white youths will have joined in.
• Many riots took place in fairly ‘leafy’ parts. Such as
Ealing or even Enfield or central Croydon. Enfield has
experienced the fastest rate of ethnic change of any London
borough over the past ten years – more rapid that in Barking
and Dagenham. Croydon, where I went to school, has changed
over the past twenty years beyond recognition. I was in
Ealing the other month and although there are ‘posh’ parts
(as there are in Clapham which was extensively looted) these
are surrounded, within a couple of minutes walk, by council
estates and the general ethnic mix on the high street is
unfavourable. In Clapham incidentally I noticed that a party
shop was gutted with helium cylinders going up. A few years
ago I hired a Dragon outfit from that shop for a St George’s
Day activity!
• The main factor influencing these riots is not deprivation
or youth alienation. It is simply an opportunity to have
‘fun’, cause mayhem and steal. In an orderly and wholesome
society people would not do this as they would feel a
connection to their community. Many of the rioters will only
have been in this country for less than ten years. They come
from poorer and more repressive societies. They don’t care
about England or our streets. They are a very ‘diverse’
bunch. Many are Moslem. They look like they are ‘mixed race’
which technically they may be, but most will actually be
from anywhere between Morocco and Afghanistan and south to
Nigeria. This is just a fantastic opportunity for them to do
as they please. They have no respect for our institutions.
This is the sort of society that the liberal establishment
have created.
So what is the correct response?
The police say that 16,000 officers will be on duty tonight.
There were just 6,000 last night and they were reinforced
from other surrounding areas.
The Metropolitan Police has over 33,000 officers and over
4,000 Special Constables. There are over 37,500 police
officers in London alone. Clearly there is a lack of will to
tackle this problem. No surprises there.
We can huff and puff about sending in the army, opening up
with machine guns and so forth. We are not in a position to
implement any of these things so I will restrict myself to
how we should respond politically now.
We should not be tempted to think that in policy terms we
should beef things up.
I was politically active during the riots in the early
1980s. There was no political dividend for nationalist
parties that advocated a hard line approach. The United
States regularly sees much more violent riots. Has this led
to a revival of the Ku Klux Klan?
The simple truth is that the only way forward is to
articulate a moderate sensible message. Even with these
riots, our people will not respond to a hard line message.
The English Democrats do just this. Their signature policies
are for an English Parliament and for recognition of St
George’s Day. Some may reflexively say that these policies
hardly offer a solution to riot and arson. However the EDs
also have sensible policies to stop immigration, deport
illegals and ensure that English culture is accepted and
adopted across the board. Having a non-immigration issue as
a key-note policy is a massive advantage in making yourself
acceptable to the English public. We have to convince the
English public to support us. Just huffing and puffing at
length about water cannon and using the N-word will get us
nowhere.
Quite simply the English do not like it put in their face.
They will not respond to a blatant racial appeal.
You know what else? They will only support a party that has
ethnic minorities in it – ethnic minority people who accept
English culture.
The only body on our side of the divide that can put large
numbers on the street is the English Defence League. The EDL
have gone out of their way to be seen to be non racist and
accepting of people who are not ethnically English but share
their aims. That is why they can put numbers on the streets.
Not because thousands of ethnic minorities who accept
English culture turn up to support them. It is because it
makes thousands of young Englishmen comfortable about going
out on their demonstrations.
This is just a fact of life. Ignore it and you will confine
yourself to being in a tiny puristic and impotent
ideological clique. I know a lot of people have difficulty
getting their heads around this. If they do not then they
are condemning themselves to political irrelevance. It is as
simple as that.
If you actually want to do anything to stop further riots
and stop our country from sliding to eternal destruction,
then the only alternative is to support sensible moderate
nationalism.
These riots should not be used as an excuse to relapse. That
would be a disaster.
These riots will soon die down. They are not caused by any
specific grievance. The culprits were flexing their muscles
and chancing their luck. It was opportunist. This sort of
thing could however happen at any time.
I pointed most of this out last week. I am not surpirsed by
these riots. My political stance is based on the assumption
that this sort of thing will become the norm.
Tuesday, August 9, 2011
China's first aircraft carrier held its first sea trial
BEIJING (Reuters) - China's first aircraft carrier held its first sea trial on Wednesday morning, in a step likely to stoke patriotic pride at home and jitters abroad about Beijing's naval ambitions.
The long-awaited debut of the carrier, refitted from a former Soviet craft, marked an initial step toward China's plans to build a carrier force that can project power into the Asian region, where seas are spanned by busy shipping lanes and thorny territorial disputes.
The carrier "left its shipyard in Dalian Port in northeast Liaoning province on Wednesday morning to start its first sea trial," said Xinhua, describing the trip as only a tentative trial run for the unfinished ship.
"Military sources said that the first sea trial was in line with the schedule of the carrier refitting project and would not take a long time," said the report.
The aircraft carrier, which is about 300 metres long, plowed through fog and sounded its horn three times as it left the dock, Xinhua said on its military news microblog.
In an interview published this week, Chinese navy rear admiral Yin Zhuo said his country intended to build an air carrier group, but that task would be long and difficult.
"The aircraft carriers will form a very strong battle group," Yin told the China Economic Weekly. "But the construction and functional demands of an aircraft carrier are extremely complex," he told the magazine.
Training crew and, eventually, pilots for carriers was a big challenge, said Yin.
"An aircraft carrier requires the concerted action of a team of thousands. That's far from easy," he said.
Last month, China's defense ministry China confirmed the government was refitting the old, unfinished Soviet vessel bought from the Ukraine government, and sources told Reuters it was also building two of its own carriers.
Earlier, a Pentagon spokesman downplayed the likelihood of any immediate leaps from China's nascent carrier program.
But the carrier plan is just one part of China's naval modernization program, which has forged ahead while other powers tighten their military budgets to cope with debt The growing Chinese naval reach is triggering regional jitters that have fed into longstanding territorial disputes, and could speed up military expansion across Asia.
In the past year, China has had run-ins at sea with Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines. The incidents -- boat crashes and charges of territorial incursions -- have been minor, but the diplomatic reaction often heated.
Last week, Japan warned that China's naval forces were likely to increase activities around its waters, prompting Beijing to accuse Tokyo of deliberately exaggerating the Chinese military threat.
China's defense budget has shot up nearly 70 percent over five years, while Japan -- tied by a public debt twice the size of its $5 trillion economy -- has cut military outlays by 3 percent over the same period, a Japanese government report said.
A senior U.S. Navy intelligence officer earlier this year said he believed China wanted to start fielding multiple aircraft carriers over the next decade, with the goal of becoming a global naval power capable of projecting power around the world by mid-century.
The U.S. navy official said it would take years for China's navy to learn how to integrate flight deck operations and attain the sophistication needed to use them effectively.
The long-awaited debut of the carrier, refitted from a former Soviet craft, marked an initial step toward China's plans to build a carrier force that can project power into the Asian region, where seas are spanned by busy shipping lanes and thorny territorial disputes.
The carrier "left its shipyard in Dalian Port in northeast Liaoning province on Wednesday morning to start its first sea trial," said Xinhua, describing the trip as only a tentative trial run for the unfinished ship.
"Military sources said that the first sea trial was in line with the schedule of the carrier refitting project and would not take a long time," said the report.
The aircraft carrier, which is about 300 metres long, plowed through fog and sounded its horn three times as it left the dock, Xinhua said on its military news microblog.
In an interview published this week, Chinese navy rear admiral Yin Zhuo said his country intended to build an air carrier group, but that task would be long and difficult.
"The aircraft carriers will form a very strong battle group," Yin told the China Economic Weekly. "But the construction and functional demands of an aircraft carrier are extremely complex," he told the magazine.
Training crew and, eventually, pilots for carriers was a big challenge, said Yin.
"An aircraft carrier requires the concerted action of a team of thousands. That's far from easy," he said.
Last month, China's defense ministry China confirmed the government was refitting the old, unfinished Soviet vessel bought from the Ukraine government, and sources told Reuters it was also building two of its own carriers.
Earlier, a Pentagon spokesman downplayed the likelihood of any immediate leaps from China's nascent carrier program.
But the carrier plan is just one part of China's naval modernization program, which has forged ahead while other powers tighten their military budgets to cope with debt The growing Chinese naval reach is triggering regional jitters that have fed into longstanding territorial disputes, and could speed up military expansion across Asia.
In the past year, China has had run-ins at sea with Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines. The incidents -- boat crashes and charges of territorial incursions -- have been minor, but the diplomatic reaction often heated.
Last week, Japan warned that China's naval forces were likely to increase activities around its waters, prompting Beijing to accuse Tokyo of deliberately exaggerating the Chinese military threat.
China's defense budget has shot up nearly 70 percent over five years, while Japan -- tied by a public debt twice the size of its $5 trillion economy -- has cut military outlays by 3 percent over the same period, a Japanese government report said.
A senior U.S. Navy intelligence officer earlier this year said he believed China wanted to start fielding multiple aircraft carriers over the next decade, with the goal of becoming a global naval power capable of projecting power around the world by mid-century.
The U.S. navy official said it would take years for China's navy to learn how to integrate flight deck operations and attain the sophistication needed to use them effectively.
'Race hate' gang in Temple Bar orgy of violence
A MOB went on a wave of random race violence on Temple Bar, which left five Dubliners with horrific injuries.
One man -- a Dublin DJ -- was almost killed in the attack as he suffered serious head injuries when he was set upon by the gang.
The level of violence has shocked gardai and the many witnesses to the race hate orgy -- believed to be the first of its kind in the city.
One member of the African gang was arrested today in pre-dawn raids by detectives across the capital.
Five Dubliners, all aged in their 20s, were left with horrific injuries in the October 2010 attacks, which have only come to light now.
Shocked
The gang -- all aged in their late teens -- savagely attacked six Irish people in the Temple Bar area of the capital in the early hours of October 10 last.
The gang, who are heavily involved in other street robberies and beatings, are all expected to appear in court.
Sources say that even seasoned detectives were left "horrified and shocked" by the extreme level of violence used in the attacks which occurred in the Eustace Street and Curved Street areas of Temple Bar at around 3.30am on the date in question.
A senior source explained: "We believe that what happened on the night was motivated by racism -- that is racism against white people.
"When the suspects were first questioned they tried to use racism as a defence -- they tried to say that they had been racially abused by the victims for being black.
"But absolutely no evidence of that was ever uncovered and gardai are satisfied that the culprits were not racially abused."
Dozens of people witnessed the shocking chain of events which started when two young men and a woman were randomly attacked at Eustace Street.
In the space of less than three minutes, five people were left with terrible injuries as bottles, punches and kicks were used to hurt the victims.
In the most serious incident, a DJ who was standing on Curved Street was set-upon and almost killed by the gang of thugs.
A source explained: "The DJ was standing outside a premises while other assaults were going on around him. His DJ bag -- with records in it -- was on the ground beside him.
"One of the gang picked up the DJ's bag and ran off, with the victim running after him. Then the attacker turned around and punched the victim, knocking him unconscious.
"When the DJ hit the floor, the culprit stamped on the man's head in what was a ferocious display of violence.
"This victim is very lucky to be alive -- the entire left side of his head was broken because of that stamping incident. The victim ended up having to have a metal plate inserted into his head -- if this did not happen he would have lost his eyesight."
Sources have revealed that another victim suffered a fractured skull in an incident in which gardai believe a glass bottle was used.
The gang are now expected to face a huge number of charges, including multiple serious assault charges, violent disorder, theft and production of an offensive weapon.
Trafficking
The arrest was made this morning after a massive investigation by detectives from Pearse Street Garda Station.
Other suspects were being hunted today.
The mother of one of the suspects has a conviction and served jail time for trafficking children into France from Nigeria.
The gang is suspected of being involved in other street assaults and have links to a criminal who was involved in robbing head shops and has been convicted of hijacking a Dublin taxi.
One man -- a Dublin DJ -- was almost killed in the attack as he suffered serious head injuries when he was set upon by the gang.
The level of violence has shocked gardai and the many witnesses to the race hate orgy -- believed to be the first of its kind in the city.
One member of the African gang was arrested today in pre-dawn raids by detectives across the capital.
Five Dubliners, all aged in their 20s, were left with horrific injuries in the October 2010 attacks, which have only come to light now.
Shocked
The gang -- all aged in their late teens -- savagely attacked six Irish people in the Temple Bar area of the capital in the early hours of October 10 last.
The gang, who are heavily involved in other street robberies and beatings, are all expected to appear in court.
Sources say that even seasoned detectives were left "horrified and shocked" by the extreme level of violence used in the attacks which occurred in the Eustace Street and Curved Street areas of Temple Bar at around 3.30am on the date in question.
A senior source explained: "We believe that what happened on the night was motivated by racism -- that is racism against white people.
"When the suspects were first questioned they tried to use racism as a defence -- they tried to say that they had been racially abused by the victims for being black.
"But absolutely no evidence of that was ever uncovered and gardai are satisfied that the culprits were not racially abused."
Dozens of people witnessed the shocking chain of events which started when two young men and a woman were randomly attacked at Eustace Street.
In the space of less than three minutes, five people were left with terrible injuries as bottles, punches and kicks were used to hurt the victims.
In the most serious incident, a DJ who was standing on Curved Street was set-upon and almost killed by the gang of thugs.
A source explained: "The DJ was standing outside a premises while other assaults were going on around him. His DJ bag -- with records in it -- was on the ground beside him.
"One of the gang picked up the DJ's bag and ran off, with the victim running after him. Then the attacker turned around and punched the victim, knocking him unconscious.
"When the DJ hit the floor, the culprit stamped on the man's head in what was a ferocious display of violence.
"This victim is very lucky to be alive -- the entire left side of his head was broken because of that stamping incident. The victim ended up having to have a metal plate inserted into his head -- if this did not happen he would have lost his eyesight."
Sources have revealed that another victim suffered a fractured skull in an incident in which gardai believe a glass bottle was used.
The gang are now expected to face a huge number of charges, including multiple serious assault charges, violent disorder, theft and production of an offensive weapon.
Trafficking
The arrest was made this morning after a massive investigation by detectives from Pearse Street Garda Station.
Other suspects were being hunted today.
The mother of one of the suspects has a conviction and served jail time for trafficking children into France from Nigeria.
The gang is suspected of being involved in other street assaults and have links to a criminal who was involved in robbing head shops and has been convicted of hijacking a Dublin taxi.
Police calm London, but riots flare across UK
LONDON (AP) — Thousands more police officers flooded London streets Tuesday in a bid to end Britain's worst rioting in a generation as nervous shopkeepers closed early and some residents stood guard to protect their neighborhoods. An eerie calm prevailed in the city, but unrest spread across central and northern England on a fourth night of violence driven by poor, diverse and brazen crowds of young people.
Scenes of ransacked stores, torched cars and blackened buildings frightened and outraged Britons just a year before London is to host the summer Olympic Games, and brought demands for a tougher response from law enforcement.
London's Metropolitan Police department put thousands more officers in the streets and said that by Wednesday there would be 16,000 — almost triple the number present Monday. The department said a large presence would remain in the city through the next 24 hours at least.
Britain's riots began Saturday when an initially peaceful protest over a police shooting in London's Tottenham neighborhood turned violent. That clash has morphed into a general lawlessness in London and several other cities that police have struggled to halt with ordinary tactics.
While the rioters have run off with sneakers, bikes, electronics and leather goods, they also have torched stores apparently just for the fun of seeing something burn. They were left virtually unchallenged in several neighborhoods, and when police did arrive they often were able to flee quickly and regroup.
Some saw Britain's economic crisis and deep cuts planned to socials benefits as a deeper underlying cause for the outburst of violence — though few rioters said it was their motivation.
The show of strength by police appeared to have quelled unrest in London late Tuesday, but in a move that could raise tensions, a far-right group said about 1,000 of its members around the country were taking to the streets to deter rioters.
"We're going to stop the riots — police obviously can't handle it," Stephen Lennon, leader of the far-right English Defense League, told The Associated Press. He warned that he couldn't guarantee there wouldn't be violent clashes with rioting youths.
Anders Behring Breivik, who has confessed to the bombing and massacre that killed 77 people in Norway last month, has cited the EDL as an inspiration.
Firefighters were tackling a major blaze at the site of a recycling center and fuel depot in Tottenham early Wednesday, but it was unclear whether the fire was linked to rioting.
Outside of London, chaos continued to spread.
In the northwestern city of Manchester, hundreds of youths rampaged through the city center, hurling bottles and stones at police and vandalizing stores. A women's clothing store on the city's main shopping street was set ablaze, along with a disused library in nearby Salford. Looters targeted stores selling designer clothes and expensive consumer electronics.
Manchester's assistant chief constable Garry Shewan said looting and arson had taken place there on an unprecedented scale, but appeared to have little motive. About 50 people were arrested there.
"We want to make it absolutely clear — they have nothing to protest against. There is nothing in a sense of injustice and there has been no spark that has led to this," he said.
In the central England city of Nottingham, police said rioters hurled firebombs though the window of a police station, and set fire to a school and a vehicle outside a second police station — but there were no reports of injuries. A total of 90 people were arrested in attacks on stores, a college, a community center and cars.
Neither Manchester nor Nottingham had previously been involved in unrest. There also were minor clashes for the first time in the central England locations of Leicester, Wolverhampton and West Bromwich, and the western city of Gloucester — where police and firefighters tackled a blaze and disturbance in the city's Brunswick district.
In London, stores, offices and nursery schools closed early amid fears of fresh rioting. Several usually busy streets were quiet as cafes, restaurants and pubs also decided to shut down for the night.
Many shops had their metal blinds pulled down, while other business owners rushed to secure plywood over their windows before nightfall.
Some London residents prepared to defend their homes and stores. Outside a Sikh temple in Southall, west London, residents stood guard and vowed to defend their place of worship if mobs of young rioters appeared. Another group marched through Enfield, in north London, aiming to deter looters.
In east London's Bethnal Green district, convenience store owner Adnan Butt said residents were tense.
"People are all at home — they're scared" of the rioters, he said.
Police offered advice on what actions businesses or homeowners could legally take to defend properties from attack. "As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defense," London police said in advice circulated late Tuesday.
Senior officers said they were considering the possible use of plastic bullets — blunt-nosed projectiles designed to deal punishing blows to rioters without penetrating the skin. Such weapons, formally called baton rounds, still are used to quell riots in Northern Ireland but have never been used by police on Britain's mainland.
Prime Minister David Cameron's government rejected calls by Conservative lawmaker Patrick Mercer and some members of the public for strong-arm riot measures that British police generally avoid, such as tear gas and water cannons.
"They should have the tools available and they should use them if the commander on the ground thinks it's necessary," Mercer said.
The disorder has caused heartache for Londoners whose businesses and homes were torched or ransacked, and a crisis for police and politicians already staggering from a spluttering economy and a scandal over illegal phone hacking by a tabloid newspaper that has dragged in senior politicians and police.
"The public wanted to see tough action. They wanted to see it sooner and there is a degree of frustration," said Andrew Silke, head of the criminology department at the University of East London.
So far 685 people have been arrested in London and 111 charged — including an 11-year-old boy — and the capital's prison cells were overflowing. Britain's Crown Prosecution Service said it had teams of lawyers working 24 hours a day to help police decide whether to charge suspects, allowing them quickly clear police station cells.
About 230 people were arrested after two days of violence in Birmingham — where police were investigating reports of shots fired in a restive inner-city neighborhood. "Officers are on the scene but there have been no injuries reported," the city's police department said in a statement.
In the northern city of Liverpool, about 200 youths hurled missiles at police and firefighters in a second night of unrest, and about 40 were arrested.
A total of 111 officers and 14 members of the public have been hurt so far in the rioting, including a man in his 60s who was attacked as he attempted to put out a fire started by members of a mob.
Police said the injured man had been tackling a blaze in a garbage bin, when he was set upon by several rioters. "It was quite a grave assault and his condition is causing us some concern," said police commander Simon Foy.
The unrest has been Britain's worst since race riots set London ablaze in the 1980s. London's beleaguered police force noted that it had received more than 20,000 emergency calls on Monday — four times the normal number. Scotland Yard has called in reinforcements from around the country and asked all volunteer special constables to report for duty.
A soccer match scheduled for Wednesday between England and the Netherlands at London's Wembley stadium was canceled to free up police officers for riot duty. Britain's soccer authorities said they were in talks with police to see whether this weekend's season-opening matches of the Premier League could still go ahead in London.
Prime Minister David Cameron cut short a holiday in Italy to deal with the crisis, reversing an earlier decision to remain on his vacation. He recalled Parliament from its summer recess for an emergency debate on the riots Thursday.
Cameron described the scenes of burning buildings and smashed windows as "sickening," but refrained from tougher measures such as calling in the military to help restore order.
"People should be in no doubt that we will do everything necessary to restore order to Britain's streets and to make them safe for the law-abiding," Cameron told reporters after a crisis meeting at his
Other politicians visited riot sites Tuesday — but for many residents it was too little, too late.
Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg was booed by crowds who shouted "Go home!" in Birmingham, while London Mayor Boris Johnson — who flew back overnight from his summer vacation — was heckled on a shattered shopping street in Clapham, south London.
Johnson said the riots would not stop London from "welcoming the world to our city" for the Olympics.
"We have time in the next 12 months to rebuild, to repair the damage that has been done," he said. "I'm not saying it will be done overnight, but this is what we are going to do."
Violence broke out late Saturday in the low-income, multiethnic district of Tottenham in north London, after a protest against the fatal police shooting of Mark Duggan, a 29-year-old father of four who was gunned down in disputed circumstances Thursday.
Police said Duggan was shot dead when officers from Operation Trident — the unit that investigates gun crime in the black community — stopped a cab he was riding in.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is investigating the shooting, said a "non-police firearm" was recovered at the scene, but that there was no evidence it had been fired, or that Duggan had fired a weapon at police. An inquest into Duggan's death was opened Tuesday, but a full hearing will likely take several months.
Duggan's death stirred memories of the 1980s, when many black Londoners felt they were disproportionately stopped and searched by police. The frustration erupted in violent riots in 1985.
Relations have improved since then, but tensions remain and many young people of all races mistrust the police.
Seeking explanations for the unrest, some pointed to rising social tensions in Britain as the government slashes 80 billion pounds ($130 billion) from public spending by 2015 to reduce the country's huge budget deficit, swollen after the country spent billions bailing out its foundering banks.
But many rioters appeared simply to relish the opportunity for unchecked violence Monday night. "Come join the fun!" shouted one youth as looters hit the east London suburb of Hackney.
In Croydon, fire gutted a 140-year-old family run department store, House of Reeves, and forced nearby homes to be evacuated. "No one's stolen anything," said owner Graham Reeves, 52. "They just burnt it down."
Police said a 21-year-old man was arrested late Tuesday in connection with the blaze.
———
Paisley Dodds, Jill Lawless, Danica Kirka, Meera Selva, Sheila Norman-Culp and Stephen Wilson contributed to this report.
Scenes of ransacked stores, torched cars and blackened buildings frightened and outraged Britons just a year before London is to host the summer Olympic Games, and brought demands for a tougher response from law enforcement.
London's Metropolitan Police department put thousands more officers in the streets and said that by Wednesday there would be 16,000 — almost triple the number present Monday. The department said a large presence would remain in the city through the next 24 hours at least.
Britain's riots began Saturday when an initially peaceful protest over a police shooting in London's Tottenham neighborhood turned violent. That clash has morphed into a general lawlessness in London and several other cities that police have struggled to halt with ordinary tactics.
While the rioters have run off with sneakers, bikes, electronics and leather goods, they also have torched stores apparently just for the fun of seeing something burn. They were left virtually unchallenged in several neighborhoods, and when police did arrive they often were able to flee quickly and regroup.
Some saw Britain's economic crisis and deep cuts planned to socials benefits as a deeper underlying cause for the outburst of violence — though few rioters said it was their motivation.
The show of strength by police appeared to have quelled unrest in London late Tuesday, but in a move that could raise tensions, a far-right group said about 1,000 of its members around the country were taking to the streets to deter rioters.
"We're going to stop the riots — police obviously can't handle it," Stephen Lennon, leader of the far-right English Defense League, told The Associated Press. He warned that he couldn't guarantee there wouldn't be violent clashes with rioting youths.
Anders Behring Breivik, who has confessed to the bombing and massacre that killed 77 people in Norway last month, has cited the EDL as an inspiration.
Firefighters were tackling a major blaze at the site of a recycling center and fuel depot in Tottenham early Wednesday, but it was unclear whether the fire was linked to rioting.
Outside of London, chaos continued to spread.
In the northwestern city of Manchester, hundreds of youths rampaged through the city center, hurling bottles and stones at police and vandalizing stores. A women's clothing store on the city's main shopping street was set ablaze, along with a disused library in nearby Salford. Looters targeted stores selling designer clothes and expensive consumer electronics.
Manchester's assistant chief constable Garry Shewan said looting and arson had taken place there on an unprecedented scale, but appeared to have little motive. About 50 people were arrested there.
"We want to make it absolutely clear — they have nothing to protest against. There is nothing in a sense of injustice and there has been no spark that has led to this," he said.
In the central England city of Nottingham, police said rioters hurled firebombs though the window of a police station, and set fire to a school and a vehicle outside a second police station — but there were no reports of injuries. A total of 90 people were arrested in attacks on stores, a college, a community center and cars.
Neither Manchester nor Nottingham had previously been involved in unrest. There also were minor clashes for the first time in the central England locations of Leicester, Wolverhampton and West Bromwich, and the western city of Gloucester — where police and firefighters tackled a blaze and disturbance in the city's Brunswick district.
In London, stores, offices and nursery schools closed early amid fears of fresh rioting. Several usually busy streets were quiet as cafes, restaurants and pubs also decided to shut down for the night.
Many shops had their metal blinds pulled down, while other business owners rushed to secure plywood over their windows before nightfall.
Some London residents prepared to defend their homes and stores. Outside a Sikh temple in Southall, west London, residents stood guard and vowed to defend their place of worship if mobs of young rioters appeared. Another group marched through Enfield, in north London, aiming to deter looters.
In east London's Bethnal Green district, convenience store owner Adnan Butt said residents were tense.
"People are all at home — they're scared" of the rioters, he said.
Police offered advice on what actions businesses or homeowners could legally take to defend properties from attack. "As a general rule, the more extreme the circumstances and the fear felt, the more force you can lawfully use in self-defense," London police said in advice circulated late Tuesday.
Senior officers said they were considering the possible use of plastic bullets — blunt-nosed projectiles designed to deal punishing blows to rioters without penetrating the skin. Such weapons, formally called baton rounds, still are used to quell riots in Northern Ireland but have never been used by police on Britain's mainland.
Prime Minister David Cameron's government rejected calls by Conservative lawmaker Patrick Mercer and some members of the public for strong-arm riot measures that British police generally avoid, such as tear gas and water cannons.
"They should have the tools available and they should use them if the commander on the ground thinks it's necessary," Mercer said.
The disorder has caused heartache for Londoners whose businesses and homes were torched or ransacked, and a crisis for police and politicians already staggering from a spluttering economy and a scandal over illegal phone hacking by a tabloid newspaper that has dragged in senior politicians and police.
"The public wanted to see tough action. They wanted to see it sooner and there is a degree of frustration," said Andrew Silke, head of the criminology department at the University of East London.
So far 685 people have been arrested in London and 111 charged — including an 11-year-old boy — and the capital's prison cells were overflowing. Britain's Crown Prosecution Service said it had teams of lawyers working 24 hours a day to help police decide whether to charge suspects, allowing them quickly clear police station cells.
About 230 people were arrested after two days of violence in Birmingham — where police were investigating reports of shots fired in a restive inner-city neighborhood. "Officers are on the scene but there have been no injuries reported," the city's police department said in a statement.
In the northern city of Liverpool, about 200 youths hurled missiles at police and firefighters in a second night of unrest, and about 40 were arrested.
A total of 111 officers and 14 members of the public have been hurt so far in the rioting, including a man in his 60s who was attacked as he attempted to put out a fire started by members of a mob.
Police said the injured man had been tackling a blaze in a garbage bin, when he was set upon by several rioters. "It was quite a grave assault and his condition is causing us some concern," said police commander Simon Foy.
The unrest has been Britain's worst since race riots set London ablaze in the 1980s. London's beleaguered police force noted that it had received more than 20,000 emergency calls on Monday — four times the normal number. Scotland Yard has called in reinforcements from around the country and asked all volunteer special constables to report for duty.
A soccer match scheduled for Wednesday between England and the Netherlands at London's Wembley stadium was canceled to free up police officers for riot duty. Britain's soccer authorities said they were in talks with police to see whether this weekend's season-opening matches of the Premier League could still go ahead in London.
Prime Minister David Cameron cut short a holiday in Italy to deal with the crisis, reversing an earlier decision to remain on his vacation. He recalled Parliament from its summer recess for an emergency debate on the riots Thursday.
Cameron described the scenes of burning buildings and smashed windows as "sickening," but refrained from tougher measures such as calling in the military to help restore order.
"People should be in no doubt that we will do everything necessary to restore order to Britain's streets and to make them safe for the law-abiding," Cameron told reporters after a crisis meeting at his
Other politicians visited riot sites Tuesday — but for many residents it was too little, too late.
Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg was booed by crowds who shouted "Go home!" in Birmingham, while London Mayor Boris Johnson — who flew back overnight from his summer vacation — was heckled on a shattered shopping street in Clapham, south London.
Johnson said the riots would not stop London from "welcoming the world to our city" for the Olympics.
"We have time in the next 12 months to rebuild, to repair the damage that has been done," he said. "I'm not saying it will be done overnight, but this is what we are going to do."
Violence broke out late Saturday in the low-income, multiethnic district of Tottenham in north London, after a protest against the fatal police shooting of Mark Duggan, a 29-year-old father of four who was gunned down in disputed circumstances Thursday.
Police said Duggan was shot dead when officers from Operation Trident — the unit that investigates gun crime in the black community — stopped a cab he was riding in.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is investigating the shooting, said a "non-police firearm" was recovered at the scene, but that there was no evidence it had been fired, or that Duggan had fired a weapon at police. An inquest into Duggan's death was opened Tuesday, but a full hearing will likely take several months.
Duggan's death stirred memories of the 1980s, when many black Londoners felt they were disproportionately stopped and searched by police. The frustration erupted in violent riots in 1985.
Relations have improved since then, but tensions remain and many young people of all races mistrust the police.
Seeking explanations for the unrest, some pointed to rising social tensions in Britain as the government slashes 80 billion pounds ($130 billion) from public spending by 2015 to reduce the country's huge budget deficit, swollen after the country spent billions bailing out its foundering banks.
But many rioters appeared simply to relish the opportunity for unchecked violence Monday night. "Come join the fun!" shouted one youth as looters hit the east London suburb of Hackney.
In Croydon, fire gutted a 140-year-old family run department store, House of Reeves, and forced nearby homes to be evacuated. "No one's stolen anything," said owner Graham Reeves, 52. "They just burnt it down."
Police said a 21-year-old man was arrested late Tuesday in connection with the blaze.
———
Paisley Dodds, Jill Lawless, Danica Kirka, Meera Selva, Sheila Norman-Culp and Stephen Wilson contributed to this report.
Cameron vows tough action as violence flares in British streets
London (CNN) -- British Prime Minister David Cameron has vowed tough action to quell rioting in Britain's cities, after tensions between gangs of youths and police escalated in London and elsewhere Monday night.
He said more than twice as many police would be on the streets of London Tuesday night, with 16,000 officers drafted in to tackle "criminality, pure and simple."
Violence initially sparked by the shooting death of a 29-year-old man in London spread to other parts of the nation Monday night, with dramatic scenes of blazing buildings and confrontations between police and hooded youths.
The Metropolitan Police in London said Monday night's disturbances were the worst the force "has seen in current memory for unacceptable levels of widespread looting, fires and disorder."
Cameron, who cut short his vacation in Italy to hold an emergency meeting Tuesday, has also taken the highly unusual step of recalling lawmakers from their summer break, with Parliament to meet Thursday to discuss the issue.
Speaking after the meeting at Downing Street, Cameron said court processes would be sped up to ensure swift justice for those people involved in violent disturbances, many of them apparently teenagers.
"People should expect to see more, many more, arrests in the days to come," he said. "If you are old enough to commit these crimes, you are old enough to face the punishments."
The Metropolitan Police released what it said would be "the first of many" CCTV images of suspected looters Tuesday morning, focusing on incidents in London's Lambeth borough and Croydon.
More than 450 people have been arrested in London since the violence began, police said Tuesday. With Metropolitan Police detention cells full, authorities are transporting those they arrest to surrounding police forces.
Forty-four police officers and 14 members of the public were injured Monday night, police said, with well over 200 arrests in the capital.
The head of London's Metropolitan Police has called for all Specials -- volunteer police officers -- to report for duty, as the capital's law enforcement resources are stretched thin.
In a Twitter post, the Metropolitan Police said: "The Commissioner has called for all Specials to report for duty and calls for employers to support this."
During the overnight hours, standoffs continued at several locations in London as police in riot gear warily watched roaming groups of youths often just yards away.
'We're going to set fire on the bus'
London violence spreading to suburbs
Time-lapse shows fires over North London
London riot locations
Peckham resident Rebecca Skipwith, a 37-year-old charity worker, told CNN she had passed crowds of "hooded-up kids" and a police cordon on her way home from work Monday. Soon afterwards, trouble erupted.
"It's quite bewildering," she said Tuesday morning. "It was horrible this morning driving to work and seeing the smashed-in shops and glass everywhere. It feels a bit of a wilderness.
"I could see a couple of burned out buildings on the main shopping street in Peckham," she added. "I'm worried about tonight, especially because it wasn't particularly well handled. So where's the deterrent?"
In Ealing, West London, a bus was vandalized and set on fire, while the driver was still on board. He escaped without injury.
There was evidence of vandalism in central London, with visible damage to a number of shops.
Sony Corp. said its only warehouse in London caught fire between late Monday and early Tuesday, with significant product damage but no casualties. The warehouse is in north London's Enfield neighborhood, which has seen scattered protests.
Home Secretary Theresa May, who also canceled her summer holiday to return to London, condemned the violence Tuesday and urged residents to tell the police what they know about anyone involved in the rioting.
"We can bring an end to this with robust policing and the help and support of local communities," she said.
A community clean-up effort began Tuesday in London, with organizers using Twitter to get volunteers together in their local areas, using the hashtag #riotcleanup.
Organiser Dan Thompson, who runs a network aiding small businesses on the south coast, said many thousands of people were supporting efforts to help local shopkeepers.
"I thought the quickest, best thing was just to help them get cleaned up this morning, get trading again," he said. "It's a city people love and to see it destroyed in the way it has been is shocking stuff."
The rioting has forced the postponement of at least two sporting events. England's international soccer game against Holland, due to be played at Wembley on Wednesday, was cancelled. And football club West Ham United called off Tuesday night's match with Aldershot Town.
"Whilst neither the club or police anticipate any issues around the game itself, the club has to comply with the police request," a statement on West Ham's website said.
The developments come as reports of violence and vandalism flowed in from other parts of the country.
West Midlands Police arrested some 133 people overnight in Birmingham, about 120 miles north of London, Chief Constable Chris Sims said. Officers were making more arrests Tuesday and had released images of suspects, he added.
He said a number of shops had been attacked but the city center was "open for business" Tuesday. A small police station was also burned down, Sims said.
Many of the young people arrested or caught on camera were "astonishingly young teenagers, girls and boys," he said, as he appealed to parents to keep their children at home Tuesday night.
In Leeds, about 170 miles north of London, police reported no rioting early Tuesday, but said there were "pockets of isolated disorder." A car was set on fire and a man was taken to hospital with serious injuries after an alleged shooting.
In Bristol, in southwest England, police said several shops and vehicles were damaged Monday night and "a number of main roads have been closed to allow officers to take control of what is currently a volatile situation."
"Officers are urging people to avoid the city centre at this time. People already in the city centre should leave the area and go home," Bristol police said in a statement early Tuesday.
Disturbances also were reported in the Liverpool area, about 180 miles northwest of London, with police there saying officers had responded to "reports of vehicles on fire and criminal damage" in south Liverpool.
A representative of London Mayor Boris Johnson said Monday evening that the mayor was cutting short his family holiday in North America to return to London.
Johnson called the violence "utterly appalling," saying: "People have lost their homes, businesses and livelihoods through mindless violence."
Questions have been raised over what the disturbances may mean for security during the London Olympics next year.
A spokeswoman for the London 2012 organizing committee told CNN: "A lot of detailed work has taken place regarding security plans for the Games and we will continue to review them together with the Met Police and the Home Office over the coming year."
Police said the rioting and looting in other parts of the capital were "copycat" events conducted by opportunists and criminals.
"This is not about the black community and the police, it's about young people and the police," said Shaun Bailey, a youth worker, in a statement circulated by the mayor's office. "And let's not beat around the bush and pretend this is some type of social justice protest -- it's sheer criminality."
The violence started in Tottenham -- the ethnically diverse, working-class suburb north of London's center whose residents are predominantly Afro-Caribbean -- after the shooting death Thursday of Mark Duggan, a black man, as he was seated inside a cab.
Officers from Operation Trident -- a Metropolitan Police unit that deals with gun crime -- stopped the cab during an attempted arrest. Soon afterward, shots were fired, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said.
Duggan, a father of four, was killed. Shooting deaths are rare in England.
The commission divulged neither who shot Duggan nor why police had stopped the cab, with the incident still under investigation.
Some reports suggested that Duggan was held down by police and shot in the head, but the IPCC has denied this.
"Speculation that Mark Duggan was 'assassinated' in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue," the IPCC said in a statement.
The IPCC said evidence from Thursday's shooting scene, including a non-police firearm, was to undergo forensic testing.
The man's family and friends, who blamed police for the death, gathered Saturday night outside the Tottenham police station to protest.
The protest began peacefully but soon devolved into riots as demonstrators -- whose numbers included whites and blacks -- tossed petrol bombs, looted stores and burned police cars.
Tottenham was the site of riots before. In 1985 Floyd Jarrett, who was of Afro-Caribbean origin, was stopped by police near the Broadwater Farm estate in Tottenham on suspicion of driving with a forged tax disc, a document all British vehicles must carry.
He said more than twice as many police would be on the streets of London Tuesday night, with 16,000 officers drafted in to tackle "criminality, pure and simple."
Violence initially sparked by the shooting death of a 29-year-old man in London spread to other parts of the nation Monday night, with dramatic scenes of blazing buildings and confrontations between police and hooded youths.
The Metropolitan Police in London said Monday night's disturbances were the worst the force "has seen in current memory for unacceptable levels of widespread looting, fires and disorder."
Cameron, who cut short his vacation in Italy to hold an emergency meeting Tuesday, has also taken the highly unusual step of recalling lawmakers from their summer break, with Parliament to meet Thursday to discuss the issue.
Speaking after the meeting at Downing Street, Cameron said court processes would be sped up to ensure swift justice for those people involved in violent disturbances, many of them apparently teenagers.
"People should expect to see more, many more, arrests in the days to come," he said. "If you are old enough to commit these crimes, you are old enough to face the punishments."
The Metropolitan Police released what it said would be "the first of many" CCTV images of suspected looters Tuesday morning, focusing on incidents in London's Lambeth borough and Croydon.
More than 450 people have been arrested in London since the violence began, police said Tuesday. With Metropolitan Police detention cells full, authorities are transporting those they arrest to surrounding police forces.
Forty-four police officers and 14 members of the public were injured Monday night, police said, with well over 200 arrests in the capital.
The head of London's Metropolitan Police has called for all Specials -- volunteer police officers -- to report for duty, as the capital's law enforcement resources are stretched thin.
In a Twitter post, the Metropolitan Police said: "The Commissioner has called for all Specials to report for duty and calls for employers to support this."
During the overnight hours, standoffs continued at several locations in London as police in riot gear warily watched roaming groups of youths often just yards away.
'We're going to set fire on the bus' London violence spreading to suburbs Time-lapse shows fires over North London London riot locations Peckham resident Rebecca Skipwith, a 37-year-old charity worker, told CNN she had passed crowds of "hooded-up kids" and a police cordon on her way home from work Monday. Soon afterwards, trouble erupted.
"It's quite bewildering," she said Tuesday morning. "It was horrible this morning driving to work and seeing the smashed-in shops and glass everywhere. It feels a bit of a wilderness.
"I could see a couple of burned out buildings on the main shopping street in Peckham," she added. "I'm worried about tonight, especially because it wasn't particularly well handled. So where's the deterrent?"
In Ealing, West London, a bus was vandalized and set on fire, while the driver was still on board. He escaped without injury.
There was evidence of vandalism in central London, with visible damage to a number of shops.
Sony Corp. said its only warehouse in London caught fire between late Monday and early Tuesday, with significant product damage but no casualties. The warehouse is in north London's Enfield neighborhood, which has seen scattered protests.
Home Secretary Theresa May, who also canceled her summer holiday to return to London, condemned the violence Tuesday and urged residents to tell the police what they know about anyone involved in the rioting.
"We can bring an end to this with robust policing and the help and support of local communities," she said.
A community clean-up effort began Tuesday in London, with organizers using Twitter to get volunteers together in their local areas, using the hashtag #riotcleanup.
Organiser Dan Thompson, who runs a network aiding small businesses on the south coast, said many thousands of people were supporting efforts to help local shopkeepers.
"I thought the quickest, best thing was just to help them get cleaned up this morning, get trading again," he said. "It's a city people love and to see it destroyed in the way it has been is shocking stuff."
The rioting has forced the postponement of at least two sporting events. England's international soccer game against Holland, due to be played at Wembley on Wednesday, was cancelled. And football club West Ham United called off Tuesday night's match with Aldershot Town.
"Whilst neither the club or police anticipate any issues around the game itself, the club has to comply with the police request," a statement on West Ham's website said.
The developments come as reports of violence and vandalism flowed in from other parts of the country.
West Midlands Police arrested some 133 people overnight in Birmingham, about 120 miles north of London, Chief Constable Chris Sims said. Officers were making more arrests Tuesday and had released images of suspects, he added.
He said a number of shops had been attacked but the city center was "open for business" Tuesday. A small police station was also burned down, Sims said.
Many of the young people arrested or caught on camera were "astonishingly young teenagers, girls and boys," he said, as he appealed to parents to keep their children at home Tuesday night.
In Leeds, about 170 miles north of London, police reported no rioting early Tuesday, but said there were "pockets of isolated disorder." A car was set on fire and a man was taken to hospital with serious injuries after an alleged shooting.
In Bristol, in southwest England, police said several shops and vehicles were damaged Monday night and "a number of main roads have been closed to allow officers to take control of what is currently a volatile situation."
"Officers are urging people to avoid the city centre at this time. People already in the city centre should leave the area and go home," Bristol police said in a statement early Tuesday.
Disturbances also were reported in the Liverpool area, about 180 miles northwest of London, with police there saying officers had responded to "reports of vehicles on fire and criminal damage" in south Liverpool.
A representative of London Mayor Boris Johnson said Monday evening that the mayor was cutting short his family holiday in North America to return to London.
Johnson called the violence "utterly appalling," saying: "People have lost their homes, businesses and livelihoods through mindless violence."
Questions have been raised over what the disturbances may mean for security during the London Olympics next year.
A spokeswoman for the London 2012 organizing committee told CNN: "A lot of detailed work has taken place regarding security plans for the Games and we will continue to review them together with the Met Police and the Home Office over the coming year."
Police said the rioting and looting in other parts of the capital were "copycat" events conducted by opportunists and criminals.
"This is not about the black community and the police, it's about young people and the police," said Shaun Bailey, a youth worker, in a statement circulated by the mayor's office. "And let's not beat around the bush and pretend this is some type of social justice protest -- it's sheer criminality."
The violence started in Tottenham -- the ethnically diverse, working-class suburb north of London's center whose residents are predominantly Afro-Caribbean -- after the shooting death Thursday of Mark Duggan, a black man, as he was seated inside a cab.
Officers from Operation Trident -- a Metropolitan Police unit that deals with gun crime -- stopped the cab during an attempted arrest. Soon afterward, shots were fired, the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said.
Duggan, a father of four, was killed. Shooting deaths are rare in England.
The commission divulged neither who shot Duggan nor why police had stopped the cab, with the incident still under investigation.
Some reports suggested that Duggan was held down by police and shot in the head, but the IPCC has denied this.
"Speculation that Mark Duggan was 'assassinated' in an execution style involving a number of shots to the head are categorically untrue," the IPCC said in a statement.
The IPCC said evidence from Thursday's shooting scene, including a non-police firearm, was to undergo forensic testing.
The man's family and friends, who blamed police for the death, gathered Saturday night outside the Tottenham police station to protest.
The protest began peacefully but soon devolved into riots as demonstrators -- whose numbers included whites and blacks -- tossed petrol bombs, looted stores and burned police cars.
Tottenham was the site of riots before. In 1985 Floyd Jarrett, who was of Afro-Caribbean origin, was stopped by police near the Broadwater Farm estate in Tottenham on suspicion of driving with a forged tax disc, a document all British vehicles must carry.
A few hours later, officers raided the nearby home of his mother, who collapsed and died during the raid. Rioting erupted shortly afterwards and a police officer, Pc Keith Blakelock, was killed. Likethe current violence, a protest outside Tottenham Police Station sparked the 1985 conflict.
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